Thread: Christmas poll

Originally Posted by ZMKA

Regardless of the numbers of people harmed during these events, the fact that the ideology would permit such action is bad enough. The fact that the scriptures don't reference a warning against such heinous action is a testament to their errancy. The omnipotent, all-loving God should have seen fit to warn men against it.

If I am not mistaken, the lessons Jesus taught were very pacifistic and did warn against harming others. However, I have also been told that the one true god followed by Christians is the god of Judaism. I believe this god is a god of war in the Jewish faith. (I could be wrong on this one though).

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

Originally Posted by marosell

"If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."

Not to over simplify the obvious but I can fit your entire explanation into a smaller package...

"Faith"

there, although it doesn't sound as pretty in short hand.

Originally Posted by tabre

Let me add something to the mx. I believe that belief in atheism (some would say science -not I) also takes a certain amount of faith. It's only those that strictly say that they don't know who don't have faith.

Let me demonstrate. Here are some questions with a typcal atheist answer.

1. Where did we come from? In short, we evolved over millions of years from very basic organisms. Our planet seems to have all the elements and conditions for this to happen.

Religion = My God made it

2. So where did our planet come from? In short, there was a singularity which exploded and created all the planets, stars, and galaxies.

Religion = My God made it

3. So where did this singularity come from? Well...we don't know. That's just what we think happened.

Religion = My God made it

4. Isn't that faith? No no no....that's science! It's a theory and that's what we think for now.

Religion = Yes that is my faith and I am right My God told me I was...

No...it's faith. Though beliefs vary from atheist to atheist, if you dig down far enough in their beliefs, they come to a point where they don't know the answer. Because the rest of their beliefs stem from that root, that means that they have beliefs which are based on no scientific evidence at all. That is called faith.

That's all.

That's all thanks...

BTW that is just the theory according to the people of the Book... We can explore other religions but their Creation beliefs are wrong according to the followers of the God of Abraham.. (Christians, Muslims, and Jews)

I need to fix a statement I made........

Jones town and the branch dividians were mass suicides they were not individual people standing for their faith in the face of those who were hostile towards it over approximately a 50 year period.

The branch dividians were not a mass suicide (Thanks to the member who brought this to my attention privately so I may fix it). David Koresh Began as a 7th day Adventist who developed a non-moral messiah complex. He was excommunicated from the church and Began his own cult. (Here's the story)
The Waco Siege began on February 28, 1993 when the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) attempted to execute a search warrant at the Branch Davidian ranch at Mount Carmel, a property located nine miles (14 km) east-northeast of Waco, Texas. An exchange of gunfire resulted in the deaths of four agents and six followers of David Koresh. A subsequent 51-day siege by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended on April 19 when fire destroyed the compound. Seventy-six people (24 of them British nationals) died in the fire, including more than 20 children, two pregnant women, and Koresh himself.
Honestly I don't know the story on the fire.

Now this would be a good reference showing how Christianity is different from the branch dividians, not how or why the follower of the faith died but by understanding the principals of the doctrine and understanding when they are being skewed for personal gain. It still does not support the existence of Jesus but at least you are no longer trying to swim in circles

.

Baron
I have no wish to "swim in circles". You see I have issues with pew sitting ,self-righteous, arrogant church going people who call themselves "Christian" That is the picture the majority of this world has of us but I question people like that being True followers. The apostles could have ran and hid to preserve their lives but they stood in the midsts of opposition proclaiming Jesus as Lord and they died never turning away from that faith. That is what it means to be Christian. We follow Christ and His purpose. (Yes I belong to a Church but as I tell those I witness to "I'm a Follower of Christ. I practice my Religion inside the Southern Baptist Convention because we see Christianity pretty much eye to eye. We do have our differences but that's why I follow Christ."

Think about this, Jesus' apostles were fishermen, a tax collector and a religious zealot. These were not learned men by any stretch of the imagination yet they turned the world upside down with their claims that not only was Jesus a real person but that he was beaten crucified buried and rose again 3 days afterward. The message they brought was not about our love for Him but His love for us and what He was willing to do so we could be redeemed. They told us of a higher purpose, a new direction and a joy that could not be experienced on our own. Never threating bodily harm, or retaliation these men were not turned away as insane but were killed for dedication to the one who died for them. The Religious killers were the ones they were trying to reach. You see no army no perstiege no money for these men in fact they spent part of their time figuring out how to care for those society didn't. If Jesus were not a real person these men had no reason to do what they did but as followers of the Messiah they had reason to die.

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Jefferson considered the teachings of Jesus to be of the highest moral and intellectual order; however, Jefferson also thought that the New Testament was so fraught with mysticism that it distracted from the substance of what Jesus taught. Jefferson was so taken with the idea of focusing on Jesus' teachings that he came up with his own version of the New Testament -- the Jefferson Bible is an interesting read.

Not that this has anything to do with the current discussion, I just thought it was an interesting tidbit that I would through into the fray.

Originally Posted by sffone

"
Jefferson considered the teachings of Jesus to be of the highest moral and intellectual order; however, Jefferson also thought that the New Testament was so fraught with mysticism that it distracted from the substance of what Jesus taught. Jefferson was so taken with the idea of focusing on Jesus' teachings that he came up with his own version of the New Testament -- the Jefferson Bible is an interesting read.

Not that this has anything to do with the current discussion, I just thought it was an interesting tidbit that I would through into the fray.

TJ did have the information we do on the authority of the gospels. Check out post #85 on page 5 for more. I'm too tired to go through all of that again.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

I'm too tired to go through all of that again.

lol

When you regain your strength, you might poke your head into this thread as well: http://straightrazorpalace.com/conve...ssion-god.html

Originally Posted by ENUF2

I need to fix a statement I made........


The branch dividians were not a mass suicide (Thanks to the member who brought this to my attention privately so I may fix it). David Koresh Began as a 7th day Adventist who developed a non-moral messiah complex. He was excommunicated from the church and Began his own cult. (Here's the story)
The Waco Siege began on February 28, 1993 when the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) attempted to execute a search warrant at the Branch Davidian ranch at Mount Carmel, a property located nine miles (14 km) east-northeast of Waco, Texas. An exchange of gunfire resulted in the deaths of four agents and six followers of David Koresh. A subsequent 51-day siege by the Federal Bureau of Investigation ended on April 19 when fire destroyed the compound. Seventy-six people (24 of them British nationals) died in the fire, including more than 20 children, two pregnant women, and Koresh himself.
Honestly I don't know the story on the fire.

.

Baron
I have no wish to "swim in circles". You see I have issues with pew sitting ,self-righteous, arrogant church going people who call themselves "Christian" That is the picture the majority of this world has of us but I question people like that being True followers. The apostles could have ran and hid to preserve their lives but they stood in the midsts of opposition proclaiming Jesus as Lord and they died never turning away from that faith. That is what it means to be Christian. We follow Christ and His purpose. (Yes I belong to a Church but as I tell those I witness to "I'm a Follower of Christ. I practice my Religion inside the Southern Baptist Convention because we see Christianity pretty much eye to eye. We do have our differences but that's why I follow Christ."

Think about this, Jesus' apostles were fishermen, a tax collector and a religious zealot. These were not learned men by any stretch of the imagination yet they turned the world upside down with their claims that not only was Jesus a real person but that he was beaten crucified buried and rose again 3 days afterward. The message they brought was not about our love for Him but His love for us and what He was willing to do so we could be redeemed. They told us of a higher purpose, a new direction and a joy that could not be experienced on our own. Never threating bodily harm, or retaliation these men were not turned away as insane but were killed for dedication to the one who died for them. The Religious killers were the ones they were trying to reach. You see no army no perstiege no money for these men in fact they spent part of their time figuring out how to care for those society didn't. If Jesus were not a real person these men had no reason to do what they did but as followers of the Messiah they had reason to die.

If memory serves, the fire was started by the branch dividians as a mass suicide, although some members were not as willing, they burned anyways, (granted not all members of Jones town wanted to drink the coolaid, those members were shot). So although not all the members were in on the suicide it was mass suicide. The only question was weather or not the presence of the FBI prompted their actions.

As for your information on what the apostles did for a living or what their motives were. Try to understand that what I said before are only examples of possibilities to illustrate the fact that if your only evidence that Jesus existed was his posse and a book written by a few followers. Then I am telling you that you do not have reliable proof of his existence.

A man, shows up in town with the power of GOD at his fingertips and not one other person, not even a scribe of the roman community thinks this is important enough to jot down? Not even a foot note? No one but his friends wrote down anywhere, in any text, anything of his existence? I mean for an average man I'd say sure only his friends wrote about him, but this man started a following that required the intervention of the roman government. So much so that they hunted him and his friends down and brutally killed them all.

The Romans where educated, we have tons of documents from the era regarding works from philosophers and story tellers and yet there is no document uncovered other than the bible that this man ever existed.

Please stop responding with what the bible said they did over and over again. I am telling you that this is not proof of the existence of Jesus. I have read the accounts of Jesus and his apostles, and I don't need you to regurgitate it for me.

What I am telling you is that you have no proof that those accounts in the bible are true beyond your own faith. You also may want to reconsider if you are thinking you can prove the bible as an accurate reference, the religion is faith based for a reason, to try and prove something as fact that god intended as faith could be considered as attempting to undo his work.

So based on the simple idea that gods word is intentionally based on faith, the only two options for you is; either the bible cannot be used as scientific evidence, or you believe that you know better and know some miraculous way to turn a faith based document into scientific fact.

Imagine a man who threatend the establishment to a point where they wanted to erase him from history(some still do). The politicians and lawers did not like his circumventing laws with old fashioned common sense.(many still don't) Nothing new under the sun..