Thread: Christmas poll

Originally Posted by Englishgent

Not so much, apparently there are Dead Sea Scrolls yet to be released that throw serious doubts on the whole religion that is Christianity

Care to elaborate?

By the way, relatively recent archaeological evidence has confirmed as historical many of the people, places and events in the bible that some thought to be incorrect.

You want evidence to prove that a myth doesn't exist????

OK ya lost me on that one...

BTW I don't think Ra, Zeus, Jupiter, Odin or Poseidon exists either, do I have to prove that too????? or will you just take my word for it ???

We are only speaking of Jesus. If Jesus is only a myth instead of evidence outside the bible there should be no mention of him anywhere unless it was to say he was the imagination of the multitude and that the religion died as did Greek and Roman mythology.

You said "

Please STOP !!!! those books point blank state they don't have proof...
in fact reading them changed my mind from thinking there was empirical proof of a "Historical Jesus" to knowing there isn't...

I'll say it again, if you are so sure these works do not contain proof you must have evidence to back up that statement. If you have nothing to base that opinion on that in itself is blind faith. Professor Greenleaf said this about examining Christianity:
In examining the evidence of the Christian religion, it is essential to the discovery of truth that we bring to the investigation a mind freed, as far as possible, from existing prejudice, and open to conviction.
This man's writings made you know there isn't a "Historical" Jesus?

I said to your post:
Lets see, ghosts no, ESP unsure, Precognition unsure, Magic & Demons yes as evil, Clairvoyance just another name for ESP & Precognition, Spirits Ghost spirits no demon spirits yes as evil, different Dimensions unsure, mind over matter I only mind when it does matter.
you said:

Wellllllllllllllllllllll sure ya do, you said it...not me, if you believe in the Bible that is what you believe in, all the stuff I mentioned, just in another name... oh BTW toss in aliens and raising the dead.. hmmm ZOMBIES!!!!!..

At least I'm open and honest and when it comes to believing the Bible absolutely. That does not make me a second class citizen in fact that just opens up 66 more books for complete study that will expand ones knowledge on why people are the way they are. There may not be aliens in the Bible but they are extra terrestrial (not of this world) oh and about raising the dead , That's Easter.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

I'll say it again, if you are so sure these works do not contain proof you must have evidence to back up that statement.

I believe the burden of proof falls on the one making the outrageous claim.

Jesus is alleged to do remarkable things, but the only people he is mentioned by all have the agenda of advancing the religion.
He allegedly healed many and even rose people from the dead, but we haven't heard from those. He had enemies who hated him enough to kill him, but we haven't heard from those. Generations of children and grandchildren undoubtedly heard stories from their parents and grandparents who knew and/or were healed by Jesus, but we haven't heard from them.

History has one source of Jesus... the people whose intent it was to advance the religion. I'm guessing its because none of those other people exist.

I know what you may be thinking... "But, people back then didn't know how to read and write...", but people DID know how to read and write. Not everyone, maybe... but people knew. People read the scriptures, didn't they?

The sole agenda of the testimony makes it suspect.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

At least I'm open and honest and when it comes to believing the Bible absolutely. That does not make me a second class citizen in fact that just opens up 66 more books for complete study that will expand ones knowledge on why people are the way they are.

Huge mis-understanding here, I never, ever, said anything demeaning about any religion, I have no agenda... I, as a true Atheist, really don't care at all, not one bit about religion, any religion, honestly....

You can believe whatever you want, anyone can, as the saying goes in America you have that right, that is what is meant when they say "Freedom of Religion" it is not "Freedom from Religion" it just means that there shall be NO state sponsored religion....
This country was founded of Christian principles, I actually have no qualms about that either, because it really doesn't matter to me, I DO NOT believe, so why would it...

Now you can believe what you want, and I will believe what I want, right up until you say there is PROOF, then I WILL disagree, and state that sorry, but that is just not true, there is no proof.... Just like if you notice, I have not stated what I believe to be true, about an afterlife either, why?? Because it is just my belief, and there is no proof... I am OK with that, I don't have to make "facts" up, to defend my beliefs, they are my beliefs not yers, so I really don't mind that you think I am wrong... And that my friend, is the huge difference between you and I... I don't want you in my "religion"
If every religion would just stop Proselytizing I think that the world would be much a better place... Why do religions do that anyway???? that I do have a problem with, could it really be true that all religion is based on money/power ???? is that why they want conversion, and even try and force it on people????

Hmmmmm a new worldwide law, "No religion can ask for, or force conversion, under penalty of taxation" LOL

When I was in high school a girl got pregnant while her hymen was still intact, it seems that she would allow her boyfriend to "play around the edges" but not fully penetrate her leaving her a "virgin" and yet still with child. It seems to me, that given the same set of circumstances, in a more naieve age it could have been credited to a miracle, and if it were, you could have the whole community believing that a miracle had in fact taken place. Now if the people responsible for the reering of the child told them their whole life that they were "the son of God" they would believe it themself, much as the peoples of various religions believe that they are right because everyone they know has told them their whole life that they are right. The bible reinforces that belief in me by the quote of Jesus on the cross "father why have thou forsaken me" to me it is the point at which Jesus realizes that what he has believed his whole life is wrong. Why make a statement like that if you know God and can communicate directly with him? I feel that it is because he realized that he is not "The Son of God" and he knows he is going to die. Some give the reason that man is as we are because we were created perfect but with free will, however if a perfect being created us than we would be perfect as he intended, not flawed as we are, so if we are not exactly as was intended, than that to me would demonstrate an imperfect God created us. The only sin that can not be forgiven is using the lords name in vain, to me suggests that God is quite vain and would not easily accept failure if this were the case who is to say some of his later attempts, possibly on other planets, did succeed. Now would a vain spiteful God want to be reminded of "his only failure" in all of eternity or would he just leave us to destroy ourselves? If God did not make us perfect than he can not be perfect himself, not the kind of being I would choose to align myself with. If the bible fortells future events than it stand to reason that God Knows all, so even as he was creating us he would know the outcome, so why continue, why create something that you know will fail? Now we a talking about a "perfect being" so failure seems impossible to me whatever the claimed circumstances may have been. In heaven the lamb will lay down with he lion? so these amimals will go to heaven? If they do then are we not murderers every time we eat? Could not an all powerful being have created us without the need to kill? Is there no demonstrated way for a life form to get energy from any other means besides killing? Plant do it all the time. It seems to me God could easily have provided us with the same ability, after all he is "all powerfull" Sorry if I have offended anyone this is just the way I see things. I wish God were real and welcome anyone to prove it to be true. I do not even require absolute proof just logical proof.

Originally Posted by ZMKA

I believe the burden of proof falls on the one making the outrageous claim.

Jesus is alleged to do remarkable things, but the only people he is mentioned by all have the agenda of advancing the religion.
He allegedly healed many and even rose people from the dead, but we haven't heard from those. He had enemies who hated him enough to kill him, but we haven't heard from those. Generations of children and grandchildren undoubtedly heard stories from their parents and grandparents who knew and/or were healed by Jesus, but we haven't heard from them.

History has one source of Jesus... the people whose intent it was to advance the religion. I'm guessing its because none of those other people exist.

I know what you may be thinking... "But, people back then didn't know how to read and write...", but people DID know how to read and write. Not everyone, maybe... but people knew. People read the scriptures, didn't they?

The sole agenda of the testimony makes it suspect.

History has more than one source for Jesus Go back to post 226 on page 12 for a partial list. That was my point, I have placed a partial list of evidence of Jesus' life outside the Bible by sources from the time period to modern time investigation. Even though these sources are confirmed as legitimate through out universities, they are dismissed by those here where they speak of Jesus. I have asked for evidence for the reason behind dismissing their claim other than personal opinion. If these writings have been debunked or rebutted I am asking to see it.

Huge mis-understanding here, I never, ever, said anything demeaning about any religion, I have no agenda... I, as a true Atheist, really don't care at all, not one bit about religion, any religion, honestly....

Now you can believe what you want, and I will believe what I want, right up until you say there is PROOF, then I WILL disagree, and state that sorry, but that is just not true, there is no proof....

If there is no Proof there should be a lot of signed statements stating the belief in such. Where science can not prove the Existence of God it can not dismiss Him either. If you wish to be atheist that's your choice but if you have no clue on evidence contained within the writings of certain men on the subject of religion or in this case Jesus instead of dismissing it like a person with intimate knowledge on the subject who is unwilling to share what parts of the writings are suspect you could just say I don't know what they say and really don't care. When you state:

Please STOP !!!! those books point blank state they don't have proof...
in fact reading them changed my mind from thinking there was empirical proof of a "Historical Jesus" to knowing there isn't...

it makes a statement which could stop someone who is trying to seek what they need to believe instead of allowing them to discover their place for themselves.

5.) Do you Christians also believe in Ghosts, ESP, Precognition, Magic, Clairvoyance, Demons, Spirits, different Dimensions, mind over matter etc: etc:??????
Wellllllllllllllllllllll sure ya do, you said it...not me, if you believe in the Bible that is what you believe in, all the stuff I mentioned, just in another name... oh BTW toss in aliens and raising the dead.. hmmm ZOMBIES!!!!!..

These 2 statement s sound demeaning to me. By your own admission you have no clue what I believe or why and don't care to. Understand I am not your "normal" go to church on Sunday "Christian" I am one who lives out my faith no matter the cost. We will live on meager earnings to see that others don't do without. I won't go any further about what being a true Christ follower means but understand just as the Pharisee's couldn't silence the Apostles I will not be silenced by those hostile toward the message of Christ here or anywhere. In fact I kinda like the verse that says: When someone gives you a hard time, respond with the energies of prayer for that person. Luke 6:28 (the Message)

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Hmmmmm a new worldwide law, "No religion can ask for, or force conversion, under penalty of taxation" LOL

I think Lee tried the private citizen version of this. As far as I remember they weren't willing to pay for acquiring his soul.
But a lot of religions do spend quite a bit of money to get new converts, and that's clearly rather profitable, because they haven't gone bankrupt. Probably not the most profitable business, but it's a viable one, plus in US it's tax-exempt.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

History has more than one source for Jesus Go back to post 226 on page 12 for a partial list.

These "sources" are not Jesus' contemporaries. They weren't even born prior to his alleged ascension. While many love to reference Flavius Josephus, they fail to address the fact that he supposedly mentions Jesus twice. And most historians think it was fraudulently added to the original texts at a later time by someone who was not Josephus.

Pliny the Younger, Tacitus, etc... more than 100 years after Jesus supposedly walked the earth, these men wrote about him. They wrote about him after the gospels had finally been written.

This is my point. The referenced sources are utterly unreliable.

None of Jesus' contemporaries wrote about him even though thousands are said to have experienced his miracles. No one, outside of the authors of the New Testament wrote a first-person account of their dealings with Jesus.
While many believers would say, the people of the time were uneducated and therefore could not read and write, most seem perfectly comfortable with Simon Peter's (a fisherman) eloquence in his letters to Timothy.

Those who are determined to believe will, and those that are determined not to believe...well...they just won't.

A different feather on the same bird I suppose.

Originally Posted by livingontheedge

" Sorry if I have offended anyone this is just the way I see things. I wish God were real and welcome anyone to prove it to be true. I do not even require absolute proof just logical proof.

I pray these help you on your quest. Need others PM me.

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