Thread: Respect vs. Blasphemy

Originally Posted by ControlFreak1

The thread question is about 'religion', and religion is not a 'philosophy' or a belief that you have, religion is something that you 'DO', a philosophy or belief without action is vain or worthless. A person is or can be 'religious', but what they actually do is what determines the value of that man's religion, hypocrites are often very 'religious'.

Ok, I understand your point. Let me ask you this. When was the last time you saw a functioning person that is not comatose or catatonic sitting and doing nothing, not acting, no functional behavior - zip. You haven't because it does not happen. People act. And when they act, they reveal their philosophy, and thus their religion. This is as simple as opening the door for somebody or flipping somebody off on the freeway. But then you would say, that is not a religion, those are societal manners. To which I would say, you can't separate them.

When I was an atheist, we made a religion out of it. You can't help it. You look for anything offensive. Anything that looks like church driving state. We were zealots about it. We had our list of things we wanted, no prayer in schools, remove the 10 commandments, no teaching of creationism. And we meant it. Oh, but wait. Let's see, philosophy, values, lists, actions. Hmmm. smells a lot like religion to me. How about you?

Now, in response to your statement about the hypocrits in religion. Yes there are. Being a religous person does not change the fact that human nature puts varying desires at odds with one another. Then, self-discipline plays a roll in being able to stick to your beliefs and not be hypocritical. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. That has nothing to do with being a religous person, it has to do with being a human being.

I understand completely why a person that was anti-religion would refuse to believe that even that position when brought to its logical conclusion is a religion. That would put them in the same vulnerable position that they would like to belive they are impervious to.

In closing I would like to say this. My God says "wherever your treasure is, there will your heart also be". He says that because He knows that mens be haviors are driven by whatever they treasure. God, gold, power, hedonism, control, sex, philanthropy. These are all things that men have come to treasure. And when they do, they build a philosphy and a religion around them. And that comes with all of the foibles that any religion does. Pure practitioners, and all sub-variations.

Nevertheless, without the 'action' it is nothingness. And even if the action is there, it can be self-deceptive nothingness, and the action only has it's real and true and good value depending on the motive.

Kind of like love, it is not a feeling or a word that has any meaning without action. If you never do anything for your wife let's say, do you really love her? And maybe more importantly would she think so?

You can say or think or believe that you are something but that doesn't make it so. It's the action that makes it so. What if God only 'told' us that He loved us? Wouldn't be the same.

What if we only tell or say or think or believe that we love Him?

James 2:26 - 'For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.'

Originally Posted by ControlFreak1

Nevertheless, without the 'action' it is nothingness. And even if the action is there, it can be self-deceptive nothingness, and the action only has it's real and true and good value depending on the motive.

Kind of like love, it is not a feeling or a word that has any meaning without action. If you never do anything for your wife let's say, do you really love her? And maybe more importantly would she think so?

You can say or think or believe that you are something but that doesn't make it so. It's the action that makes it so. What if God only 'told' us that He loved us? Wouldn't be the same.

What if we only tell or say or think or believe that we love Him?

James 2:26 - 'For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.'

Thank you for being persistant. I now understand what you are saying and I agree with your position. I have quoted that piece of scripture from James many imes myself to those that think that they will play their "Saved by grace through faith" card at the end without having ever demostrated anything actionable, no matter how small, that says, yes I actually have faith.

Nice conversing with you about this.

Originally Posted by xman

My beliefs include, but are not limited to this and this.

First "This"

Atheism, as it is usually meant, is not a position at all. Really. There is no position.

For most atheists, it is nothing more than a suspension of belief due to not having any good reason to believe.

We atheists? We are standing outside the debate entirely. You have not proven to us that it is a debate worth having, since you have not proven that what we are debating is real.

There is no position. Atheism is simply the default state of mind.

From this vantage point there looks to be a position. If it is simply the default state of mind there is no point but to read these posts there has to be something more than that. If you do not like other people's position that's one thing but to challenge them is in itself a debate (point counter-point). By said challenge you are not on the outside but in the middle of this debate and by challenging our thoughts points and positions you have given worth to them which makes it real enough to be a threat if not to your beliefs then maybe to someone Else's.

Second "This"

BC Humanist Association BC Humanist Association - What are Humanist Principles?

A section from this website-
We see the human species as an integral part of the animal kingdom and the natural universe. By the same token, we regard claims to creationism, satanic influence and life after death as poetic myths of human origin....

This IS a faith statement.
Faith- (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust (3) : something that is believed especially with strong conviction.

There is no proof to the statement that creationism, satanic influence and life after death are poetic myths of human origin. No proof but yet you believe and with some of the statements here I would say there is some quite strong convictions. Which leads us back to one of the definitions of ....

Religion-4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"


One more definition Ardor- a : an often restless or transitory warmth of feeling b : extreme vigor or energy : intensity c : zeal d : loyalty

I see faith in your belief, I see vigor in the defense of your non-position. By the evidence of these posts what you have is a personal religion. Just because there is no God in your non-position belief system you still hold to it with ardor and faith and your convictions to it are strong enough to challenge others. This conclusion is by your own but not limited to your beliefs.

MistressNomad_
I'm an atheist, and since I reached the final years of high school, I have never passed by a homeless person who was talking to me without stopping. If I have food, I give it to them. If I have money, I give that too. And if all I've got is my pretty smile, then I give that. Always.

Thank you. I wish there were more people in this world willing to reach out to others but frankly there isn't that many. You are a better person to your fellow man than I ever was on my own. May your trek through this life bring you happiness and peace.

I never challenged your state of mind. Look again.

At no point do I challenge the validity of your belief, or anyone else's belief. I only challenge your assertion that empathy and human kindness is a thing not available to atheists, for I know for a fact that you are wrong.

I'm defending my humanity, which you were denying to exist. Not my "position."

And I'm not a better person than anyone. I just try harder than many. Try harder, and it's within your grasp. Always was.

Originally Posted by MistressNomad

I only challenge your assertion that empathy and human kindness is a thing not available to atheists, for I know for a fact that you are wrong.

My Mother lived and died an atheist, may she rest in peace. There was not a more kind and emphatic person that I have met in my 61 years.

Originally Posted by MistressNomad

I never challenged your state of mind. Look again.

At no point do I challenge the validity of your belief, or anyone else's belief. I only challenge your assertion that empathy and human kindness is a thing not available to atheists, for I know for a fact that you are wrong.

I'm defending my humanity, which you were denying to exist. Not my "position."

And I'm not a better person than anyone. I just try harder than many. Try harder, and it's within your grasp. Always was.

When did I say you challenged my state of mind?

I am sorry but that post was not directed at you. If you read the first quote of it and the last portion of the post before you will see where it was directed. When ask about what he believed one of the places he pointed was to your post where I got the quote for use. If you also noticed I did not include a name with that portion. You did not challenge the validity of anyone's belief.

I never asserted that empathy and human kindness is a thing not available to atheists My comment was that rarely do I see them involved in such activities.

I never denied your humanity. The statement I made was this "There is no proof to the statement that creationism, satanic influence and life after death are poetic myths of human origin. No proof but yet you believe and with some of the statements here I would say there is some quite strong convictions. " This is directed at the statement on the website quoted in my last post and it is their position. This also was not directed at you. Your name was not used at anytime here either.

If you do not want to believe you are better than someone that makes no difference to me but I know exactly where I came from and what I was capable of. It is only because of a surrendered life to my Lord that I have purpose and direction. I said,"Thank you. I wish there were more people in this world willing to reach out to others". I will try to refrain from thanking you for doing what's right again.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

A section from this website-
We see the human species as an integral part of the animal kingdom and the natural universe. By the same token, we regard claims to creationism, satanic influence and life after death as poetic myths of human origin....

This IS a faith statement.

Nope. The operative word is not 'believe', or 'prove', but ...

regard |rɪˌgɑːd|
verb [ trans. ]
consider or think of (someone or something) in a specified way :

Once more for those in the bleachers.

SCEPTICS NEEDN'T DISPROVE ANYTHING SUPERNATURAL. THE ONUS IS ON THE BELIEVER TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF THEIR CLAIMS. UNTIL THEN WE FUNCTION AS THOUGH SUCH CLAIMS ARE NOT FACTUAL. WE REGARD THEM AS METAPHOR.

Originally Posted by ENUF2

I see faith in your belief, I see vigor in the defense of your non-position. By the evidence of these posts what you have is a personal religion. Just because there is no God in your non-position belief system you still hold to it with ardor and faith and your convictions to it are strong enough to challenge others. This conclusion is by your own but not limited to your beliefs.

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