Thread: Gallup Poll: 4 in 10 believe man created by God 10,000 years ago

First of all, everyone that discusses religion should read this.

10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On | Cracked.com

Second of all:

Originally Posted by richmondesi

The universe and every other system is moving toward disorder, right? But progressively complex organization of systems came from nothing.

I'm interested in observations that illustrate increased order and complexity.

Paul, what you've got here is an example quite common, when theists have a go at using the second law of thermodynamics to support their position.

You also seem to have done what is most commonly done when using this argument, that is, misinterpret the results, possibly misunderstanding the second law itself.

The key concept is that entropy, in an isolated or closed system, over time, is always greater than zero. Always. What is often missed is the concept of the closed system.

This is usually the result of an anthropocentric or geocentric cosmology, which all too often fails to allow that the earth is not a closed or isolated system. Indeed, we see many examples of complexity on earth that should not otherwise exist. We are the most obvious example.

Very little of what we know now exists, including ourselves, would exist were it not for an external source of energy, the sun. That is what drives all life processes on earth.

Taken as a more closed system (which it isn't, in fact), the solar system is indeed running down. The sun is roughly halfway through its life. Angular momentum is being slowly more evenly distributed. In four or five billion years, this little solar system will not be recognizable.

But, back to our local situation. The amount of hydrogen that has fused into helium in the sun since the dawn of life on earth, far surpasses the energy even received by the earth from the sun during the same time. The amount of entropy in the earth-sun system alone has increased dramatically.

Does this shed a little light on how the second law of thermodynamics holds true, while we still see a local decrease in entropy (for now, at least)?

Originally Posted by richmondesi

When you answer how you can say that "the concept of god was invented" isn't tantamount to saying there is no god, I'll be happy to discuss this.

Who else would come up with the idea of a god?

I'm an atheist so I don't have any belief in the gods of religion. This doesn't mean I know there is no god. Or that I am claiming there is no god. I just don't believe the claims of the various religions.

There is no evidence for god so it's safe to say that humans came up with the concept of god to explain the world around them. Until there is some evidence for god it's still just a human concept.

Maybe in the future there will be undeniable evidence for god and it will stop being just a concept and become a fact.

Originally Posted by richmondesi

And no, I'm not necessarily implying anything about the Big Bang

Well what are you referring to when you say "came from nothing"?

Originally Posted by NYCshaver

Who else would come up with the idea of a god?

I'm an atheist so I don't have any belief in the gods of religion. This doesn't mean I know there is no god. Or that I am claiming there is no god. I just don't believe the claims of the various religions.

There is no evidence for god so it's safe to say that humans came up with the concept of god to explain the world around them. Until there is some evidence for god it's still just a human concept.

Maybe in the future there will be undeniable evidence for god and it will stop being just a concept and become a fact.



Well what are you referring to when you say "came from nothing"?

There's no evidence for lot's of things. There's no evidence that what you see daily is actually happening and that it all just takes place in your head. Reality is just a human concept, as is evidence.

Originally Posted by LX_Emergency

There's no evidence for lot's of things. There's no evidence that what you see daily is actually happening and that it all just takes place in your head. Reality is just a human concept, as is evidence.

There is evidence of what I'm actually seeing is happening...it's other people.
They can corroborate my claims of what I'm seeing.

Sure there are lots of things with no evidence but people usually don't believe those things actually exist. Like dragons or goblins.

Ah... scale is a funny thing. Where exactly is the boundary of closed and open systems? You want the Earth to be an open system upon which things move toward order, but that's only because you don't like what the science is doing to the arguments.

Unfortunately, I do understand the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

I'll let Dr. John Ross answer that point:

Originally Posted by Dr. John Ross

...there are no known violations of the second law of thermodynamics.* Ordinarily the second law is stated for isolated systems, but the second law applies equally well to open systems ... there is somehow associated with the field of far-from equilibrium phenomena the notion that the second law of thermodynamics fails for such systems.* It is important to make sure that this error does not perpetuate itself.
[Dr. John Ross, Harvard scientist (evolutionist), Chemical and Engineering News, vol. 58, July 7, 1980, p. 40]

In the last 20 years was there a new understanding of this scientific law? Wait, what is a "law" in science again? Maybe I don't understand...

Originally Posted by NYCshaver

There is evidence of what I'm actually seeing is happening...it's other people.
They can corroborate my claims of what I'm seeing.

Sure there are lots of things with no evidence but people usually don't believe those things actually exist. Like dragons or goblins.

C.S.Lewis was a noted atheist who, in studying the religious beliefs of others, found himself a convert. In his book "The Problem of Pain" he wrote of the " Numinous". Describing the intuitive sense that all peoples of all cultures feel that there is "something" beyond mere mortal existence. I was raised by atheists and was one of them up until my late thirties. I had a similar antagonism to religious cultures as displayed by some in this thread.

I decided that contempt before investigation was unfair and that fore mentioned Numinous was another issue. So through study to prove to myself that there was nothing to it I found myself a convert. I won't put words in richmondesi's mouth and quote him but I think the point is that the universe, the earth we live in, is the proof, the evidence of a creator. That is my take on it anyhow.

Nice use of canard, though.

See, this is the problem with discussing things with atheists that I've seen. Deliberately misleading, huh? ... Sweet

Originally Posted by richmondesi

Nice use of canard, though.

See, this is the problem with discussing things with atheists that I've seen. Deliberately misleading, huh? ... Sweet

I assume you're referring to me. What are you claiming I was misleading about?

Originally Posted by NYCshaver

I assume you're referring to me. What are you claiming I was misleading about?

You know what happens when you assume, right?