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Thread: Are you "Furious".
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06-22-2012, 02:29 PM #1
Are you "Furious".
The "Fast and Furious" debacle has been going on for a year now.
In short, the ATF went after several gun stores in Arizona saying that they were allowing "straw" purchases of guns that they knew were going across the border. The gun stores blew the whistle saying that yes they knew the guns were being purchased illegally, but were allowing the purchases because they were cooperating with the ATF program to track guns across the boarder.
Regardless of what the ATF's motives for this were, the fact is that they didn't track any of the guns as they were supposed to. Thousands of guns went across the boarder, hundreds of Mexicans were killed and a couple of the guns turned up at the murder scene of Brian Terry (a US boarder agent).
Several ATF Supervisors of this program have been _promoted_ out of the state. A House Panel has been trying to get the truth out of Eric Holder for many months. They want to know what he knew and when he knew it. Holder has been caught in several lies already and a letter from Holder's office about the project has been proven to be false. The committee has subpoenaed many documents and what little they have gotten has been redacted so heavily it makes the process a joke.
Now Obama is claiming Executive Privilege on the documents. This happened within minutes of a Contempt of Congress vote. Many lawyers have chimed in with opinions saying that Obama can't do this unless he is directly involved and Executive Privilege is not to be used to hide criminal activity. This has ignited a firestorm right across party lines.
Congress clearly has the power to ask these questions.
Do you think Fast and Furious was illegal or just ill conceived?
Is Obama hiding criminal behavior or just protecting national interest?
Should Holder go to jail for Contempt of Congress? This is the first time a Chief Justice has ever been accused of contempt.
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06-22-2012, 02:37 PM #2
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Thanked: 247I don't know enough about it, but luckily that won't stop me from voicing my ignorant opinion.
I don't think it was illegal, nor ill concieved. I think it was poorly executed.
I think Obama is protecting national interests.
Was Holder single handedly responsible for the entire operation, who just happened to be incompetent/overworked/understaffed/budget restricted,etc? Seems a bit simplistic to blame one man for an operation of this scale.
This isn't the first or last time the government has allowed illegal activities to happen in order to gain better insight into how to more effectively stop the acitivities. It's a very successful strategy, that I support. It's a shame they weren't able to devote the poper amount of resources or intellect in order to pull it off. But I'd say for this one big failure, there's probably about twenty+ success stories we'll never find out about.Last edited by regularjoe; 06-22-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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06-22-2012, 02:42 PM #3
Obama is protecting a friend. And abusing powers vested to him with such action. Both he and Holder are anti- Second Amendment, as given by their records and speeches. This was conceived as a way to con Americans into giving up their God-given Right to Bear Arms.
Holder should be held in Contempt. The President should be investigated for abuse of powers, and the ATF should be cleaned up from the top down.
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06-22-2012, 04:00 PM #4
First of all this operation was conceived and started during the Bush administration. The present administration actually stopped the operation once it became aware of it.
it's just one of many federal law Enforcement Operations over the years that are started out of good intentions but along the way something goes wrong.
The only difference here is the Republicans are using it for political purposes.
My understanding is the wacko right wing media is trying to turn this into some ridiculous secret plot by the present administration to take away peoples guns.
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06-22-2012, 05:17 PM #5
I'm going to have to see proof of the statement that this was started by Bush. The investigation has been going on for a year and the Bush connection was only reported by the media yesterday. The media has been trying desperately to ignore the whole thing. Until recently it was only covered by Fox. If it was really started by Bush, the rest of the media would have said so, a long time ago, and loudly.
If it was really a Bush operation, Holder wouldn't would have been trying so hard to deny the whole thing.
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06-22-2012, 05:22 PM #6Do you think Fast and Furious was illegal or just ill conceived?
It's the same in business. Why would anyone create a derivative of a derivative when the first derivative wasn't collateralized well in the first place?
It feels to me that we are creating band-aid solutions upon band-aid solutions. I am not a libertarian but sometimes i feel we move so far away from fundamentals that we end up getting what we deserve.
I understand derivatives are sexy and can make money but for whom? The public lost big time. I know getting the big guys running guns is important but that effort saw one of our own killed and countless foreign nationals.
Was it "illegal?" No I don't think so - but it should have been. Was it "ill conceived?" You bet!
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06-22-2012, 05:25 PM #7
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06-22-2012, 10:52 PM #8
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Thanked: 1185Well, I was pretty convinced when I opened this thread that I'd just cruise through and read but apparently someone has overdosed on NPR and needs a ride back to Literalville.
1. Fast and Furious was NOT conceived under Dubya's administration. There was a similar operation called "Wide Receiver" that involved 300 or so weapons BUT when it became apparent that there was no way to track these weapons and the potential for it getting out of hand was pretty darned high, the plug was pulled and Wide Receiver was shut down. By contrast, Fast and Furious came into being after Mexican President Felipe Calderone came for a visit in 2009. He pointed out that reinstating the assault weapons ban would curve violence in Mexico. Our illustrious leader (being an upstanding citizen of the world) agreed that we were a horrible country and that an unarmed citizenry would kill two birds with one stone (i.e. smooch Calderone's culu as well as eliminating a very troublesome aspect of that pesky Constitution thing.) So Holder engages with Fast and Furious only this time with about 8 times more weapons. Bottom line, they lost most of the guns and at least two of them were involved in the slaughter of Brian Terry (the Border Patrol Agent.)
2. Political purposes!??? This guy got killed because of the DOJ's dereliction of duty! The committee is trying to figure out why that happened and Holder's been stonewalling them and ignoring their requests for documentation for over a year. What's more he really seems to have trouble keeping his versions of the truth sorted out. For example, HOLDER: Fast and Furious was a Bush operation and Bush's Attorney General knew about it. COMMITTEE: No kidding!? We'd like to see some documentation to back that up. HOLDER: I'd like to redact my previous statement. Then there's Nancy Pelosi, Crotalus, I think we maybe screwed, the botox queen has figured out the hidden agenda. Since Holder is the guy in charge of preventing voter intimidation, the Republicans just want to get rid of him so they can cheat. Yeah, Holder is a real hawk when it comes to voter intimidation, look how quick he went after a slam dunk case of voter intimidation by the New Black Panther party...well wait, he did nothing. And tell me again who insists that dead people and illegal immigrants remain on the voter roles? NOT Republicans.
Bottom line is if there were a matched set of testicles anywhere in this administration, the Attorney General would cooperate fully with the investigation into Brian Terry's murder (assuming of course he had any integrity.) Every thing else aside, it's just the right thing to do. If his department is found to be guilty of wrongdoing, he salutes smartly, takes his butt kicking like a grown man and then goes out and fixes the problem by holding those involved accountable. My biggest problems with the whole darned thing are:
1. Imagine I was under investigation for a crime and refused to surrender the documents requested, lied on more than a few occassions and generally stonewalled the investigation. I bet I'd be duck walked off to the penitentiary for contempt of court, purgery, and obstruction of justice, quicker than you can say soap on a damn rope.
2. This guy Holder doesn't seem to have too much trouble making sure that terrorists (domestic and otherwise) get justice but doesn't feel someone in the military, border agents, or cops deserve the same justice. Had the voter intimidation involved the Ku Klux Klan, I doubt he would have just let it slide. You'd think that if anyone still understood that we are a country governed by laws, it would be the attorney general. I guess he 's a perfect fit for this administration full of scam artists.Last edited by 1OldGI; 06-22-2012 at 10:58 PM.
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06-22-2012, 05:33 PM #9
Here here to "crotalus". For Obama to invoke executive privilege on this, this F&F operation must lead straight to the Oval Office. Throughout his entire administration, his conduct is approaching darn near criminal. This is nothing more than the left's attempt to in act more draconian anti-2nd Amendment measures and what is the result of it.
Deaths on both sides of the border, Mexican civilians and the death of BP agent Brian Terry. Where the hell is justice for Mr. Terry and his family?
This operation may have begun in the latter days of the Bush Administration but it was escalated under the Obama Administration. Orchestrated by Eric Holder and the UnJustice Department under direct order of Obama."The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure."
Thomas Jefferson, Paris, November 13th 1787
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06-22-2012, 05:38 PM #10
It's funny how the winds on all these rant threads tend to blow from the starboard...