Thread: Separation of Church and...

It was the early protestants in America who pushed the hardest for the separation of church and state. They had seen first hand what happens when the state endorses a particular religious belief. Every person of another belief is automatically a second class citizens and not as backed or represented or treated equally by the state.

They knew that in order to have complete freedom OF religion, everyone first had to have freedom FROM religion. Think about that and you'll see the truth of it.


When government officials do things like that, the message they are sending is that the state shares the beliefs of a particular segment of the population, not all citizens. This automatically marginalizes every citizen who doesn't share that belief.

If you think that's not the case, imagine that he was a Muslim governor of a state that you as a Christian lived in for a moment. Now imagine your feelings if the governor announced a date of worship for Muhammad and prayers to Allah.

In that situation, could you at that point ever feel that the government represented your interests equally as those of a Muslim in your state?

If you as a Christian went to the court system in your state and saw predominantly displayed in the court house a giant monument of the 5 pillars of Islam, would you feel that you're going to receive treatment equal to a Muslim in the court system?

No. It's impossible to, because the state is automatically more on the side of some citizens than it is on others.

Freedom of religion isn't there to protect the position of the majority, it's there to protect the positions of the minority religions, because the position of majority doesn't always stay that way. For one group to be protected, all have to be. For that to happen, the power of the state CAN NOT be more behind any one belief.

Absolute separation of state is the only way to fully achieve that. It's that way to protect me and you as well, from each other and the state equally.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...[/

Umm yeah that is in the Constitution, there is no Seperation of Church and State in there..


True Atheists should have no problem with Religion, right up until the are made to practice any Religion by proclimation of law,,

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...[/

Umm yeah that is in the Constitution, there is no Seperation of Church and State in there..


True Atheists should have no problem with Religion, right up until the are made to practice any Religion by proclimation of law,,

That's a good point Glen, and on its face kind of valid, but the Supreme Court has interpreted that saying as there indeed is separation of church and state. More importantly - those decisions have held as interpreted in court. So by all "definition" - there is separation.

It's everywhere in the Constitution - Kind of like the constitution states everyone has the right to bear arms - but convicted felons can't get them... or Canadian students . lol Or voting? Felons can't vote either.

Just saying.

Originally Posted by maddafinga

It was the early protestants in America who pushed the hardest for the separation of church and state.

The problem is this doesn't quite jive with the history. The early protestants in America were just as intolerant to different religions and variations of their specific religion, as the places they escaped, sometimes even more so.

By the time the constitution of the USA was drawn things had mellowed out a fair amount, and whoremongers and drunkards like Benjamin Franklin got to hold government positions as high as postmaster general

I say lets look at what separation of church and state means. The term simply means that the government cannot support or be supported by a specific religious group. If we rewind our brains to basic grade school history, many immigrants to the new world wished to escape the Catholic Empire of Europe. The Catholic Church had its hands elbow deep in the governments of many countries and controlled what religion could be practiced. Our constitution never once said that government could not be affiliated with a religious group or religious ideals. The ideal of separation exists solely to prevent another religious empire from forming. Liberal extremists took that ball and ran with it. And where did that get us? Kids get expelled for having a christian Bible or praying over their lunches but leaving the class to pray 5 times a day and carrying the Koran is just fine. Its all a big sham. I would much rather have a political figure in office that promotes a solid christian lifestyle than one that doesnt. After all, most of our forefathers did.

Originally Posted by debay

I say lets look at what separation of church and state means. The term simply means that the government cannot support or be supported by a specific religious group. If we rewind our brains to basic grade school history, many immigrants to the new world wished to escape the Catholic Empire of Europe. The Catholic Church had its hands elbow deep in the governments of many countries and controlled what religion could be practiced. Our constitution never once said that government could not be affiliated with a religious group or religious ideals. The ideal of separation exists solely to prevent another religious empire from forming. Liberal extremists took that ball and ran with it. And where did that get us? Kids get expelled for having a christian Bible or praying over their lunches but leaving the class to pray 5 times a day and carrying the Koran is just fine. Its all a big sham. I would much rather have a political figure in office that promotes a solid christian lifestyle than one that doesnt. After all, most of our forefathers did.

First, please don't put all your faith in grade-school History. "Basic grade school history" as you call it is, necessarily, incredibly simplified. It often perpetuates myths and inaccuracies. For example, do you really think of Columbus as a great man? Ask all the Carib women he raped before writing letters home bragging of the fact. As for his navigational skills, the only reason he stumbled onto what he thought was India was that his math was terrible and he vastly underestimated the diameter of the earth (which, incidentally, every contemporary educated person in Europe recognized was round). Also the thing about him 'discovering' America is bunk. Not only had it been 'discovered' tens of thousands of years earlier and since inhabited by a wide variety of diverse cultures, he was also beaten by about 500 years by the Norse. The "I cannot tell a lie" thing? Also bunk, invented by a later author. Europeans saved and civilized Native Americans (i.e. all aboriginal peoples of the Americas)? Trust me - you *really* don't want to get me started on that one. The point is, as uncomfortable as the notion may be, what any of us learned in grade-school history is most definitely not indisputable fact. This applies to all countries - I have just chosen a few examples from the USA as that's where most folks reading this thread will likely be from.

Second, let's not blame this all on the Roman Catholic church. For all their sins throughout history - and they are many, I think you'll find that many of those who emigrated to North America did so to escape persecution in protestant countries. For example the the settlers of the Plymouth Colony originating from England which was at the time a decidedly non-Catholic realm. No religion has a monopoly on intolerance and hatred. How many of the millions of Spanish and Portuguese fled Europe to escape Catholicism? With the principal exception of the Huguenots, how many fled France because of the Catholic Church? Why were the Americas not dotted with non-Roman Catholic Spanish, Portuguese, and French colonies? Anyway, Catholic countries were dominated by the Catholic church - that is true. But it is also true that Protestant European countries were similarly dominated by their own particular dominant denomination.

Third - what is the evidence for kids being expelled for having a bible or praying? I'm actually genuinely curious about that one as I have always suspected that was either an urban legend or *very* isolated cases that were latched on to by the Christian Right as examples of the so-called 'war on Christianity'. If there are documented cases of this happening, I'd be very interested to read about them. Particularly if they occurred in the same school where other kids are carrying Qur'ans and praying five time a day. And if you want freedom for your kids to express their religion in school, should not that same courtesy be extended to children of other faiths?

Originally Posted by debay

Kids get expelled for having a christian Bible or praying over their lunches but leaving the class to pray 5 times a day and carrying the Koran is just fine. Its all a big sham. I would much rather have a political figure in office that promotes a solid christian lifestyle than one that doesnt. After all, most of our forefathers did.

That's just not the case. Any kid can and does carry their own religious book or pray as much as they like. They can pray in school where and whenever they like.

What can not happen is that a teacher or the school itself cannot call for a prayer or proselytize or push or endorse any religion.

For exactly the reasons I detailed in my post above.

Uhhhh, that pretty much says what I said. The government cannot support or be supported by a "church". Im personally OK with that. It doesnt mean however, that kids cant carry a bible in school. Or that the 10 commandments cant be hung in court rooms. Or that kids cant pray as part of a graduation ceremony. It has gone too far.

Originally Posted by debay

Uhhhh, that pretty much says what I said. The government cannot support or be supported by a "church". Im personally OK with that. It doesnt mean however, that kids cant carry a bible in school. Or that the 10 commandments cant be hung in court rooms. Or that kids cant pray as part of a graduation ceremony. It has gone too far.

Kids can and frequently do carry bibles in school. Kids can and do pray in graduation ceremonies.

The school itself can't call for prayers in ceremonies. The kids can do it as much as they like.

The ten commandments can not be hung in court rooms.

So, by todays standards this is wrong?
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