Thread: Separation of Church and...

Originally Posted by debay

I say lets look at what separation of church and state means. The term simply means that the government cannot support or be supported by a specific religious group. If we rewind our brains to basic grade school history, many immigrants to the new world wished to escape the Catholic Empire of Europe. The Catholic Church had its hands elbow deep in the governments of many countries and controlled what religion could be practiced. Our constitution never once said that government could not be affiliated with a religious group or religious ideals. The ideal of separation exists solely to prevent another religious empire from forming. Liberal extremists took that ball and ran with it. And where did that get us? Kids get expelled for having a christian Bible or praying over their lunches but leaving the class to pray 5 times a day and carrying the Koran is just fine. Its all a big sham. I would much rather have a political figure in office that promotes a solid christian lifestyle than one that doesnt. After all, most of our forefathers did.

First, please don't put all your faith in grade-school History. "Basic grade school history" as you call it is, necessarily, incredibly simplified. It often perpetuates myths and inaccuracies. For example, do you really think of Columbus as a great man? Ask all the Carib women he raped before writing letters home bragging of the fact. As for his navigational skills, the only reason he stumbled onto what he thought was India was that his math was terrible and he vastly underestimated the diameter of the earth (which, incidentally, every contemporary educated person in Europe recognized was round). Also the thing about him 'discovering' America is bunk. Not only had it been 'discovered' tens of thousands of years earlier and since inhabited by a wide variety of diverse cultures, he was also beaten by about 500 years by the Norse. The "I cannot tell a lie" thing? Also bunk, invented by a later author. Europeans saved and civilized Native Americans (i.e. all aboriginal peoples of the Americas)? Trust me - you *really* don't want to get me started on that one. The point is, as uncomfortable as the notion may be, what any of us learned in grade-school history is most definitely not indisputable fact. This applies to all countries - I have just chosen a few examples from the USA as that's where most folks reading this thread will likely be from.

Second, let's not blame this all on the Roman Catholic church. For all their sins throughout history - and they are many, I think you'll find that many of those who emigrated to North America did so to escape persecution in protestant countries. For example the the settlers of the Plymouth Colony originating from England which was at the time a decidedly non-Catholic realm. No religion has a monopoly on intolerance and hatred. How many of the millions of Spanish and Portuguese fled Europe to escape Catholicism? With the principal exception of the Huguenots, how many fled France because of the Catholic Church? Why were the Americas not dotted with non-Roman Catholic Spanish, Portuguese, and French colonies? Anyway, Catholic countries were dominated by the Catholic church - that is true. But it is also true that Protestant European countries were similarly dominated by their own particular dominant denomination.

Third - what is the evidence for kids being expelled for having a bible or praying? I'm actually genuinely curious about that one as I have always suspected that was either an urban legend or *very* isolated cases that were latched on to by the Christian Right as examples of the so-called 'war on Christianity'. If there are documented cases of this happening, I'd be very interested to read about them. Particularly if they occurred in the same school where other kids are carrying Qur'ans and praying five time a day. And if you want freedom for your kids to express their religion in school, should not that same courtesy be extended to children of other faiths?

At this point in time I'd simply welcome the separation of Church from small boys. After that we can worry about politics.

James.

Originally Posted by Cangooner

First, please don't put all your faith in grade-school History. "Basic grade school history" as you call it is, necessarily, incredibly simplified. It often perpetuates myths and inaccuracies. For example, do you really think of Columbus as a great man? Ask all the Carib women he raped before writing letters home bragging of the fact. As for his navigational skills, the only reason he stumbled onto what he thought was India was that his math was terrible and he vastly underestimated the diameter of the earth (which, incidentally, every contemporary educated person in Europe recognized was round). Also the thing about him 'discovering' America is bunk. Not only had it been 'discovered' tens of thousands of years earlier and since inhabited by a wide variety of diverse cultures, he was also beaten by about 500 years by the Norse. The "I cannot tell a lie" thing? Also bunk, invented by a later author. Europeans saved and civilized Native Americans (i.e. all aboriginal peoples of the Americas)? Trust me - you *really* don't want to get me started on that one. The point is, as uncomfortable as the notion may be, what any of us learned in grade-school history is most definitely not indisputable fact. This applies to all countries - I have just chosen a few examples from the USA as that's where most folks reading this thread will likely be from.

Second, let's not blame this all on the Roman Catholic church. For all their sins throughout history - and they are many, I think you'll find that many of those who emigrated to North America did so to escape persecution in protestant countries. For example the the settlers of the Plymouth Colony originating from England which was at the time a decidedly non-Catholic realm. No religion has a monopoly on intolerance and hatred. How many of the millions of Spanish and Portuguese fled Europe to escape Catholicism? With the principal exception of the Huguenots, how many fled France because of the Catholic Church? Why were the Americas not dotted with non-Roman Catholic Spanish, Portuguese, and French colonies? Anyway, Catholic countries were dominated by the Catholic church - that is true. But it is also true that Protestant European countries were similarly dominated by their own particular dominant denomination.

Third - what is the evidence for kids being expelled for having a bible or praying? I'm actually genuinely curious about that one as I have always suspected that was either an urban legend or *very* isolated cases that were latched on to by the Christian Right as examples of the so-called 'war on Christianity'. If there are documented cases of this happening, I'd be very interested to read about them. Particularly if they occurred in the same school where other kids are carrying Qur'ans and praying five time a day. And if you want freedom for your kids to express their religion in school, should not that same courtesy be extended to children of other faiths?

I'd like to add that a nation of vast majority Christian population really can't have a war on Christianity.

My suspicion is that the people complaining of that are actually whining about the loss of their position of special status and privilege, which they are steadily losing.

Sooooo, If Im Gov of NC and I give my opinion that mint ice cream is nasty and that I prefer orange sherbet, thats technically wrong because now the whole state is somehow "forced" to stand behind my opinion? What if I say as Gov that on the following Sunday I want everyone who agrees with me to have Orange Sherbet ice cream after their sunday meal? oh, heaven forbid I mention Im having mine after a Sunday lunch at CHURCH. Heaven forbid. The only thing that makes this more complicated than ice cream is that religion is such a hot topic. Its actually quite simple if you let it be. This conversation is never going to move forward. You have your opinion, I have mine. I personally believe that christian values in a political figure are nice to have. They are human and subject to corruption like anyone else- they are politicians afterall- but I prefer it. A look at the founding fathers shows that many of them had strong protestant backgrounds and beliefs that they did not hide in their writings or public speakings. Could our government not use a stricter set of morals and guidelines right now? I think we need a whole lot more Jesus than we do insane taxes, corporate backscratching and back room deals. Im cutting off any responses because like I said, its a dead end debate. May God bless you and may your eyes see The Truth before its too late.

Originally Posted by maddafinga

It was the early protestants in America who pushed the hardest for the separation of church and state.

The problem is this doesn't quite jive with the history. The early protestants in America were just as intolerant to different religions and variations of their specific religion, as the places they escaped, sometimes even more so.

By the time the constitution of the USA was drawn things had mellowed out a fair amount, and whoremongers and drunkards like Benjamin Franklin got to hold government positions as high as postmaster general