Thread: Pope stepping down

Originally Posted by BobH

I suppose that is true but the actions or lack of them take by the church during that period of history has long been a subject of heated debate.

Bob

Yes. Indeed. However, that is not the topic of this thread.

Just like a random thread about e.g. the US election does not have to account for 250 years of US history, the slaughter of native Americans, or Iran contra, a thread about the pope stepping down and the next papal election is not a catch-all topic for everything in the last2000 years of Catholic history.

Well, yes and no. It is germane to the topic in that quite a few people will not take the rationale given for the Popes abdication at face value given the recent past history of the church and Papacy. That is not to mention the current Pope's role in how the church has dealt with the pedophile epidemic that has come to a head in the last decade or so. It all tends to cast doubt and suspicion on the subject just as previous deeds and practices cast a shadow over what politicians have to say during an election. Everyone carries the baggage of history with for good or bad. It is a matter of taking things in context and not excluding things we wish did not happen.

Bob

Mine in bold

Originally Posted by Bruno

The reason those posts were deleted was that I wanted an on-topic discussion.
You called me an apologist when it should be clear that I did not make apologies for anything, but was talking about the department of doctrine as it exists today. As such there is absolutely no reason to call me an apologist, and definitely not a reason to put me at the same level as a Nazi apologist.

Actually, you were stating, incorrectly I might add, that historically, the Vatican had nothing to do with the formation or organization of the Inquisition, whose nefarious activities were being criticized by another poster. Forgive me if I misconstrued, but that does sound somewhat apologetic to me, especially since it is untrue. Even if I'm wrong in the interpretation, I fail to see how a direct response to a statement that you made and a topic that you raised is now suddenly qualified as "off-topic".

The premise of your last post is also invalid.
The whole idea that either we have to leave your posts alone OR we are performing religious cencorship, is untrue.

This premise is being put forward by you here, not in my post, which clearly states that hey, if I'm wrong, delete all my posts and feel free to kick me off the forum. No skin off my back. However, if we are going to engage in an open discussion on a subject that you yourself raised, I think it highly questionable that YOU (not WE) delete posts which YOU don't like, agree with or decide to consider "off-topic".

There are a couple of other possibilities. One of them is that you have an axe to grind with anything religious, and are putting meaning in my posts which is not there. No sir! If people want to believe in the Catholic Church, Wiccan rituals or the Great Pumpkin, that's fine with me. I'm all for freedom. I was simply taking exception to how you are handling this discussion, and will gladly end my cantankerous contribution here. Cheers!

There were several inquisitions. The spanish inquisition -which was mentioned earlier in this thread- was started by, and under control of the Spanish monarchy at all times, and any papal requests to calm down and insure due process was followed, were outright rejected by said Spanish monarchy.

Spanish Inquisition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Near the outset of the Inquisition, in a letter of April 14, 1482, Pope Sixtus IV instructed the Spanish to ensure due process, allow legal counsel and appeal to Rome.[54] King Ferdinand defiantly rejected Papal control, the Inquisition becoming thereafter a tool of the monarchy, rather than the church.[54]

As such, while the Catholic church is certainly to blame for a lot of things, the Spanish inquisition is not one of them.
Therefore there was absolutely no need for you to call me an apologist or put me on the same level as a Nazi apologist which is a rather strong insult.

Even if you were not sure that that was what I meant, you could have asked for clarification, rather than go in and immediately seek confrontation.

I look forward to the pageantry of archaic rites, be they the changing of a pope or a monarch, they are fascinating to watch and are filled with "cool" trivial details.

a pope who abdicates, first one in 600 or so years is interesting but, personally, it does not matter to me. the political dealings leading to the selection of the next one will set the tone for the resolution of abuse that have been brewing for centuries... before it was little boys it was little girls, but after a while parents got annoyed with their young daughters getting pregnant by the parish priest, boys were safer... not a new issue just one that is now openly discussed.

but celibacy within the priesthood is not the greatest challenge or threat to the church but it is the failure to stay relevant to the lives of laity. sure there are 1.2+billion roman catholics... but for a great many of those the church is useful only for indoctrinating the young, marriage, christmas, easter and death the rest of the time the church means very little to them.

what sort of pope will emerge i'm going to guess not a progressive but a conservative who will try and roll back the reforms of the last 50 years. cardinals from Europe, Canada and USA helped bring out those changes but lets face facts South America and Africa are the growing areas of catholism and they tend to be conservative.

nope i'm not a catholic so it really does not affect me... but if you are not interested in the oldest surviving political organization selecting a new leader you must have a life

enjoy,
jim

Gentlemen. This is a thread about a man, "well stricken in years" who has decided he is no longer up to the job he signed onto. He is stepping down, a historic event given the context.

If anyone wants to discuss that event feel free to continue within this thread. Posts having to do with the history of religious persecution, misdeeds, and the like, have no place in this conversation.

This thread will remain open for discussion. Any member who insists on taking the conversation off topic will be given a time out for not adhering to moderator team decisions.

If any member has an ax to grind in that area start your own thread on that topic. That is another conversation.

Originally Posted by syslight

what sort of pope will emerge i'm going to guess not a progressive but a conservative who will try and roll back the reforms of the last 50 years. cardinals from Europe, Canada and USA helped bring out those changes but lets face facts South America and Africa are the growing areas of catholism and they tend to be conservative.

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/...inenti_en.html

76 of the 118 eligible cardinals are from Europe or Northern America.
Most likely, the next pope is going to come out of those 76
It also means that Africa and Latin America are not in a position to really go against the majority of the Cardinals.

Sorry if i went off topic....
to return to it.
it is good that a leader realizes when their age and health no longer allow them to fully exercise their office and they choose for the greater good to let go of the reigns so that younger, healthier hands can guide the future.

the unfortunate issues is that a change in monarch, pope or sitting world leader is a huge expense for the people they govern.

as for the make of of eligible cardinals i was meaning that sometimes the political pressures cause people to select choices they otherwise would not make... maybe i dislike cardinal bruno's political leanings, return to absolute monarchy, so much that i'll vote for cardinal jimmy, even though he is a member of the communist party.

jim

I wouldnt vote for either Cardinal Bruno or Cardinal Jimmy, JMO. ;P

I would like to see a Pope who had the energy and influence to clean up the church and restore it's integrity, without this integrity the church will have nothing but a negative influence. The pedophilia must be dealt with worldwide, in my mind this is the issue that harms the church the most, it needs to be rooted out completely with little compassion to those who practice it. They should be given a chance to leave the church or be fed to legal authorities for prosecution.

There are other issues I am sure that need to be dealt with, but those are mostly dogmatic or political and as such are purely secondary to the integrity of the church as whole.

Originally Posted by Bruno

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/...inenti_en.html

76 of the 118 eligible cardinals are from Europe or Northern America.
Most likely, the next pope is going to come out of those 76
It also means that Africa and Latin America are not in a position to really go against the majority of the Cardinals.

So much for proportional representation in the cardinals that will make the decision then Catholic Church by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . That is considering the majority of adherents to the roman catholic church are not in North America and Europe.

Bob