Thread: Salm Rock/Old Rock Coti's vs Other vintage Coticules

I think several cotis fall in the 8-10k range with some exceptional ones being finer still.

It's kind of a new boom period to buy a coti right now as ardennes is pulling a lot of cool stuff out of the ground. It was really La Grise heavy for a long time and it isn't a particularly exciting vein.

Originally Posted by yohannrjm

He basically said that he shouldn't have to modify his honing technique even slightly to hone on the coticules.

Yeah, that's not realistic. Every hone has to be honed with the way it likes. I'll mention the washita again, the ones that have strop top boxes and don't seem that fine. They'll make an excellent razor maintainer if you don't allow them to get all the way to the edge every time.

That's different than the decent hard fine jnats which will work just about any way you rub something on them.

Cotis can be a lot crankier than that, especially coarse fast cutters.

Jaspers on the far other end of the spectrum, if they aren't used with some firmness, they'll never cut anything.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I cannot speak for Nelson, he is more than capable of speaking for himself, but I do not have 'vested interest' in what anyone buys, at any price point, I don't think Nelson does either.

Neither do I (have any interest at all in what anyone buys). I certainly have spenty my share, though, and sold most of what I didn't keep for a loss - in some cases didn't sell at all if I felt the stones were bad enough.

Originally Posted by kcb5150

I think several cotis fall in the 8-10k range with some exceptional ones being finer still.

I'd say that's fair. With any pressure most are much coarser, though.

One of the things I did was try an early coti with woodworking tools, where you do want the abrasive to do most of its work at full pressure because you're trying to remove substantial wear. It was immediately evident that the particles in a coti are pretty large (that was with a lagrise, I tried both sides just for giggles). I talked to a few carvers and got the same opinion, and the same from a toolmaker (from williamsburg) who had found my particular old rock hone. I can't remember if he said there was one or zero carvers/cabinetmakers, etc, using cotis in the museum (despite having a bunch of euro natives working there). He preferred spydercos (still does, I guess) and either he or someone else had the museum stocking american hone company hones for the craftsmen to use. One of the carvers there is still using a super punjab unless he retired.

At any rate, I haven't run across a woodworker that gets much satisfaction out of them because of the particle size. I couldn't. When I didn't like the lagrise I had for razors, I tried to assign it to the shop (i had a big one), but it came up short there also.

With light pressure, they cut much finer than their particle size, which is, after all, the objective with all of the natural hones - to let the surface particles get a little tired and cut shallower grooves that a leather strop greatly prefers.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Neither do I (have any interest at all in what anyone buys). I certainly have spenty my share, though, and sold most of what I didn't keep for a loss - in some cases didn't sell at all if I felt the stones were bad enough.

Well if you'll forgive me for attempting to categorize you ........ I think you are one of those people who like to sharpen steel on stone. Razors, knives, tools ......... you enjoy the challenge of figuring out different stones. At least that is the impression I get. I'm that way to some extent, but I get frustrated more quickly than some, if things don't go my way. At that point it ain't fun. The old Wide World Of Sports intro ..... the thrill of victory, or the agony of defeat.

Speaking of coticules I've got a few that I haven't figured out yet. Is it me ....... or is it the stone ? I've had more than one where I thought it was a dud, but further experimentation revealed I just hadn't pushed the envelope far enough.

I don't know what the percentage is, but there are many here who want to hone their razor to maintain it, and don't care to get into all kinds of hones and honing methods. That is fine too. Different strokes, for different folks.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Well if you'll forgive me for attempting to categorize you ........ I think you are one of those people who like to sharpen steel on stone. Razors, knives, tools ......... you enjoy the challenge of figuring out different stones. At least that is the impression I get. I'm that way to some extent, but I get frustrated more quickly than some, if things don't go my way. At that point it ain't fun. The old Wide World Of Sports intro ..... the thrill of victory, or the agony of defeat.

Speaking of coticules I've got a few that I haven't figured out yet. Is it me ....... or is it the stone ? I've had more than one where I thought it was a dud, but further experimentation revealed I just hadn't pushed the envelope far enough.

I don't know what the percentage is, but there are many here who want to hone their razor to maintain it, and don't care to get into all kinds of hones and honing methods. That is fine too. Different strokes, for different folks.

That's a fair assessment. I'll sharpen anything I can by hand, from razors, to scissors, to hatchets, (put a whole list of woodworking tools here), lawn mower blades.

There are some stones that are decent for one thing but bad for others. PHIG is pretty lousy for woodworking tools, but great for razors if the PHIG in question is even and doesn't release its particles. Jasper is great for engraving tools, but a bit tricky for razors. Coticule is acceptable for razors, but pretty lacking for woodworking tools. There are exceptions to everything, but there are a lot of general cases out there that are right most of the time.

A woodworker who uses the array of english hones isn't surprised to find out that washita stones cut a swath across the UK and idled a lot of slate and charnley stones of cabinetmakers when they became available there.

I don't really know why anyone who does carpentry or culinary work would go for anything other than synth solutions these days. DMTs, shapton glass stones, spyderco, etc.. I would, anyway. I use a shapton 500 for initial work on bevels because it is fast, almost impossible to clog, and leaves a nice, easy scratch pattern to work with.

There is definitely a certain virtue to synth hones, even for razors provided you stick to one system as the synth ratings overlap at times. Personally, I'm not too crazy about the feel of a synth finished edge, but if I had to, I could live with a synth progression that I finished on a trans ark to just color the edge a bit more to my liking.

Originally Posted by kcb5150

There is definitely a certain virtue to synth hones, even for razors provided you stick to one system as the synth ratings overlap at times. Personally, I'm not too crazy about the feel of a synth finished edge, but if I had to, I could live with a synth progression that I finished on a trans ark to just color the edge a bit more to my liking.

Try a 20k Suehiro finish it is nice.
The benefit of synthetics is speed, for those that hone more razors, for average honer that hones from time to time naturals will work fine.