Thread: Salm Rock/Old Rock Coti's vs Other vintage Coticules

Originally Posted by Utopian

In my opinion, there are a lot of coticules that are not practical for one stone honing, and it would be "ridiculous" to claim otherwise.

+ 1

Originally Posted by DaveW

The "one stone hone" thing is ridiculous to begin with.

I've said that since the first time it was brought up here by a Belgian coticule advocate some years ago. I tried it, and it is doable with certain stones, but it is like walking up the stairs to get to the top of the Empire State Building instead of taking the elevator. With other stones it is not doable to a satisfactory result. Ergo ....... it is ridiculous. YMMV.

It's been a while since we've had a good coticule discussion, hasn't it? My reply is a bit on the long side (what can I say, it's been so long, I got carried away), so in case you don't like reading lots of words, well, this is going to suck.

Originally Posted by DaveW

Let's examine the number of "one stone" hones that cut bevels like an agitated washita arkansas, a fine india or a synthetic 800-1000 waterstone.
Zero.

Granted, establishing bevels on a coticule is not ideal. However, most razors already have some sort of bevel. If it's not in too bad shape (no large chips or messed up geometry otherwise) setting a bevel takes me about 5-10 minutes on slurry on a relatively fast coticule. If it takes longer than 10 minutes, I will usually use something a bit coarser.

Originally Posted by DaveW

And the number of "one stone" hones that can set a bevel quickly and then turn around and polish an edge as well as a hard even japanese natural stone that allows you to literally wipe the razor across the surface any way you'd like and get a great edge.
Zero.

So for the sake of argument you decided that a "hard even japanese natural stone" is the pinnacle of finishing stones and of shaving edges. That's all nice and dandy, but not necessarily true. Maybe for you it is.

I will ignore your relatively narrow parameter for honing a razor for a bit and say that, if there is nothing inherently wrong with the edge (e.g. excessive chipping) or the geometry of the razor itself, honing a razor to a comfortable shaving level (easily cuts stubble, no tendency to dig into the skin) takes me (and has took me for quite a while already) 15-30 minutes. If I apply what is known as the unicot method, it will take me 10-15 minutes on most days. This applies to any of the 6 coticules I have owned and a few more I have used over the last 4 years.

Also, I feel that finishing a razor is the easiest part of honing in general (given that your stroke technique is clean). For instance, finishing on a coticule literally takes 30-50 X-strokes on water. Most coticules do not increase sharpness much at this stage, but I think we can agree that's not the role of a finishing hone anyway.

And as we are throwing around sweeping statements, here is one from me: if all you do on a coticule is finishing on water and your edge is not up to snuff after that, you most likely did not hone well enough before finishing (provided the coticule in question does not have hard inclusions that damage edges).

Originally Posted by DaveW

As far as fiddling with a stone when a jnat that meets the criteria I mentioned above is $200 (or a third to half of that if you're willing to accept koppa), when only one in N coticules can come close to that for razor maintenance? No thanks.

So now that one stone does exist, while you just argued that it does not? Your argument is inconsistent, or at least unclear. Also, I was under the impression that, in order to get a shave ready edge off a hard Japanese natural hone (from beginning to end) you need at least three different nagura stones (botan, at least one of mejiro/tenyou/koma and a tomo nagura), which go for a fair amount of money in their own right. So that's not quite the same as a coticule with a coticule slurry stone.

Also, for illustration: of the 6 coticules I owned, none came even close to costing $200. And I cannot remember seeing too many japanese naturals sold by reputable and knowledgeable vendors for under $100 (although I remember some Shouboudani's for €75 or so - without nagura, of course), but then again I may not have been looking too hard, either. Please explain to me how a $200 Japanese natural from a knowledgeable vendor is a better deal than a €99 (20x4 cm, which is plenty large) coticule from a knowledgeable vendor.

Originally Posted by DaveW

The "one stone hone" thing is ridiculous to begin with [...] False dilemma.

I am glad it is so clear for you, but I find your argument unconvincing. You set very narrow parameters, based on results I must assume you have had with other natural hones and then conclude that because no one hone fits into all the exact parameters you have set "one stone honing" is ridiculous. I do this ridiculous "one stone hone" thing quite often, actually.

Originally Posted by DaveW

I would hate to be a beginner who only got a coticule and couldn't figure out why they weren't getting good edges.

Well hello, I was that beginner who only got a coticule and I could not quite figure out on my own why I had sub-par edges. So I invested a bit of time and effort (because I'm not in this whole straight shaving hobby to save time, money or effort, now am I?), read a bunch of stuff from people who had done the same (www.coticule.be) and voilà: good edges. Not all of them all the time, but most good enough to comnfortably shave with. In a bit over a month. Since then I have not tried out an X amount of different types of hones simply because I never needed to.

And only “one in N coticules” works? Just because people keep repeating this ad nauseum still does not make it true. Frankly, I find it a bit silly. The argumentation usually begins and ends with "many members on SRP who hone(d) a lot of razors have found this". To which I could reply “Well, I know a lot of people who honed a lot of razors who say that most coticules are suitable for honing razors”, which I will not because it is a bogus argument. Just because “many people” find or think something does not necessarily make it true. However, this apparent paradox must suggest that the truth lies at least somewhere in the middle, right? Or, just, you know, no.

Then there is the inconsistency argument: "Coticules are all veeeery different and unpredictable". Which is relative. Yes, there are differences between coticules, which is why in diluting a fixed amount of strokes to get to certain places in the honing process when diluting is difficult, if not impossible, to determine (except on a stone-by-stone basis, which goes against the idea of a more universal method of use). When using a coticule, I would rather suggest testing the edge or evaluating feedback to determine the state of the edge. Because of differences in speed coticules are slightly unpredictable from one to the next. Yet they all function according to the same principle, which makes their behaviour predictable to a certain extent.

Learning to effectively use one's first coticule can take a bit of time (even though the unicot method is not all that complicated and works quite well among the different coticules I have used and others have used); of course it does, it is a skill. However, once one learns to use this first coticule effectively, the learning curve for every subsequent coticule is thereby much reduced; one does not have to start from scratch with every coticule.

I find it strange and amusing that people who put in hours upon hours of trying to learn to shave with a straight/open/cut-throat razor are discouraged from learning to hone in a certain way because it takes time and effort. “But learning on synthetic hones minimizes that effort.” My reply to that: "So? Are you in a hurry?"

My suggestion for a great, close, old school shave with a wicked sharp and smooth edge every shave without putting in too much of an effort in acquiring skills: Get an old Gem 1912/G-Bar razor (or an EverReady equivalent), a 100-pack of ptfe-coated stainless GEM razor blades and have at it. I have found this is as close as you can get to a straight shave without a straight razor.

Or hone on synthetics, naturals or your marble threshold. There are a million ways to make this work, it’s just a matter of preference.

Sorry for the length, but I felt it all needed saying.

Two things:
* If you're going to use "one stone" to maintain a razor, every single finisher out there can do it. There's nothing special about cotis in that respect. Even the finest hardest jnat can maintain a razor
* One in N stones doesn't mean that the N-1 stones don't work, it means they don't work as well as other reputable finishers that cost the same (often less). One in N will work with the ease that a good finisher of another type can

There are probably few people on here who have tried more different stones than I have.

I stand by my statements. they are not as good unless you consider a razor that's a bit duller and with less ease to be "as good". To the point that I'll tell you that I have shaved off of washita stones and gotten quite good edges off of them after some fiddling, as long as there is a linen and strop involved.

That doesn't mean I'd suggest that washitas are a good stone for a beginner to finish with, or are as good. they will do the "one stone" thing as well as most cotis, but will require just a little bit more skill to finish with.

You can play with your cotis. I still have my deep rock, it was a gift. I've sold the only superb one I've ever seen, not because there was anything wrong with it, but because it's in the ballpark of the rest of my finishers.

I do feel bad for the people who spend $250 on a big coti and have to screw around trying to figure out why they're getting dull edges, trying to "feather pressure" and screw around with all kinds of dilutions. Slurry to clear on an asagi stone is a better-than-coticule edge every time, and for less money. That is, unless you figure a duller edge is superior.

I can guarantee that any coticule that drops the sharpness of a razor that I've finished on a japanese stone or thuringian is not doing so due to my lack of honing a razor properly. It would only take a scope picture of the edge before and after to see why the coticule is creating a duller edge.

I don't even see where the jnat talk fits into all this.... Jnat edges are awesome... They also cost a fair bit more, in general and you have to worry about fake stamps/getting what you paid for which is a drag... I'm not even sure where the one stone hone argument fits... It's the blanket statement about 3/100 worthy for honing razors that is ridiculous. A hell of a lot of ppl get by just fine on a 1k synth and any given coti. And for the record, I have lunes, vosgienne stones, eschers, a huge old clam broth colored ark from the 1800s that produces a crazy edge after 400ish passes, as well as a few others in that zone of performance, and yet for certain razors I still default to a coti which gives an edge on the mellower side. There is a real virtue to the edges off those rocks, they can get you bbs easily enough, and they are ultra forgiving... If someone just wanted one hone to touch up their razor from time to time, they are probably fine just springing for a thuri with a slurry stone. It would be sufficient unless there were damage.

$250 is generally not what you will be paying from Ardennes.... Hell, I was quoted well under €100 for a few different les lat bouts a few weeks ago.... Even if you were stuck with a coti that only ate up the mid range grits, it would be a deal as good synths aren't exactly cheap.

The stones are different shapes, so it's really hard to make the comparison. The one thing they both have in common is that they can be unstable over their lifetimes.

The idea that jnats are expensive is not true, but most people don't know much about the low cost ones. If a low cost one is desirable, something a bit short that would still cost a mint in the land of cotis can be had. I had the ozuku koppa, which was about 6x3 from CKTG and it was $69. It was keener than any coticule I've ever used, though it definitely did not slurry easily. A tomonagura or something to generate slurry would be necessary. I did keep that stone and cut it up for naguras (a true jnat fan is going to find it odd to cut up a hard stone for naguras, but you can cross hatch the surface of the hardest stones with a hacksaw blade and still get them to release slurry).

I have never had a maruka stamp stone, I think there is a good chance that the bulk of them are fake, and a great chance that they are not better than the jnats I already have.

The stones on ebay right now sold as "shoubu damascus asagi" can be had in 8x3 by very thick for about $200. There's nothing close to that in coti in terms of size vs. dollars. I could go out to ebay and flip my old rock coti for $15. it's almost NOS and the label is bright and it's a beautiful stone, but a beginner would be far better off with koppa and a cheap tomonagura.

What you won't find much of is jnat stones that are 5 inches long and 1.25 inches wide like the tiny cotis that are inexpensive. What you also won't find is $4 flea market stones, and sometimes you can find cotis in older cities at flea markets for a few bucks, so you do have that with cotis.

I bought one coti from ardennes, a 7+ inch long natural combo that was $225. It was a dud. I'm sure they have some decent stones, but I sold it for a loss because I didn't have the heart to charge someone much for it.

I have had one single dud jnat, but it wasn't sold as a razor stone. It was a stone where someone lied about its fineness 10 years ago, and it proved not to be a good tool stone. Every stone I've bought from someone who knows enough to call it a razor stone has been fabulous, and some I've bought just based on looks where the seller had no grade have also been excellent.

Disburden did sell me a coticule that he described as spectacular, and it was. That was my one excellent one. It wasn't cheap, it was 9x2, natural vintage combo and it was $325. And worth it. There are some.

At any rate, jnats are mentioned because when you say "something works, but not well enough compared to other known finishers", you have to set the bar with something. Eschers and razor graded japanese stones are there. Hard arks are there (a bit trickier to use than the two prior), and I'm sure there are a lot of others.

I'd love to try an LPB coti, but they sound like they are a lot like jasper (glassy with an aggressive slurry), and they are probably similar in chemical makeup if they are quartzish stuff. I can't justify one to fiddle with since even the little ones cost several hundred dollars, and a jasper slab costs $15.

I'd be the first to admit that coticules above all other stones are the biggest case of diminishing returns as you move up in size. Nat combos that you don't find in the wild are a waste as well as the bbw is usually a bit crap to work with. Only exception is if you want a vein that is always naturally bound to bbw. If you have the budget to buy a massive one, you are better splitting it between a more conservative one and something else interesting or just saving your cash altogether. I like holding my stones when I hone so I tend to like ones that suit it. 5x2.5" is my favorite size, but I also like 6x1.5.

I wouldn't say any of these are better than the other besides absolute sharpness. You can get a great shave off of any of them, they just have different character. I don't necessarily care if a blade isn't as sharp as the steel can be pushed if it is shaving comfortably and very well.

But going back to something like old rock, the reason they sell at such a premium besides reputation is that the vein is not longer being exploited and shows no signs of being mined in the future. The family that controls it doesn't seem to want to make any deals for commercial exploitation at this time so if you want one and want to know it is the real deal, you need a stamped example, and those are finite in the world. It's no different than a stamped escher selling for such a great premium.

I agree on the 5x2.5 coti. It's a lovely size, especially in a natural combo hone.

I'm sitting here poo-pooing the cotis, but there's no guarantee I won't buy another one in the future if I see a really pretty natural combo in that size (a vintage nat combo, not a lagrise...btdt,it's like honing on a rubber seat belt). That's the size of my deep rock coti. I'd have to be a dummy to do it, but I sold the best one I've ever had on the notion that "i'm cutting down the number that I have".

that notion never lasts, though. If I thought there was a reason the LPB would be substantially different from jasper, I'd try one, even at the cost.