Thread: Lorraine Rouge / Rouge Du Salm / BBW / Goldfisch Wetzstein

Ok.... I lapped it some more and the rough areas are a tad smaller.....
I'm not even going to lap the under side..... I has some very coarse areas with "little pits", like air bubble......

About lorraine==salm rouge
Info 20M G&H4 page 47:
"We're pretty sure the "Rouge du Salm" is the same as Lorraine."

But there is a long distance between Viesalm (
where Rouge du Salm was being mined
"In the area of Vielsalm is a shale layer called Veine
Lorraine or also Rouge du Salm. In English it is sometimes
called Salm Rouge. "
)
and Lorraine(
"The stone "Pierre de la Lorraine Rouge" comes from the
Lorraine region in France and is not Coticule but a red
sandstone." --bbw, if I haven't mistaken, is a slate
)
https://www.google.ru/maps/dir...


+About yellow spot on the goldfisch at the first post
" La Lorraine itself is
sandwiched between layers BBW. You will therefore never
find a combo Coticule-Lorraine." Info 20M G&H4 page 48

Actually I haven't met labelled Rouge du Salm yet.

Good point, but remember beeing two BBW layers, in the middle a salm layer.....

Also remember natural bending of structures due to nature...i mean the pictures of bended coticule like this example...

Originally Posted by Botanic

About lorraine==salm rouge
Info 20M G&H4 page 47:
"We're pretty sure the "Rouge du Salm" is the same as Lorraine."

But there is a long distance between Viesalm (
where Rouge du Salm was being mined
"In the area of Vielsalm is a shale layer called Veine
Lorraine or also Rouge du Salm. In English it is sometimes
called Salm Rouge. "
)
and Lorraine(
"The stone "Pierre de la Lorraine Rouge" comes from the
Lorraine region in France and is not Coticule but a red
sandstone." --bbw, if I haven't mistaken, is a slate
)
https://www.google.ru/maps/dir...


+About yellow spot on the goldfisch at the first post
" La Lorraine itself is
sandwiched between layers BBW. You will therefore never
find a combo Coticule-Lorraine." Info 20M G&H4 page 48

Actually I haven't met labelled Rouge du Salm yet.

Botanic, yes i know that there is a Sandstone, thats a double used Term as Henk mentioned it...these stones are out of focus here...but probably my Headline was not choosed well enough or i didnt pointed it out the best way....

i was focussed on the old terms used "Lorraine Rouge" and the stones labelled "La Lorraine"....

As this topic is often discussed widely from different point of views, actually also Peter (Hatzicho) confirmed that the stones are from the same layer....he posted it here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...-goldfish.html

actually all the Goldfisch Stones and the "La Lorraine" stones i had were all the same material, differing in its appearance and also in its properties....i wanted to add some more shots which show the differences in more detail...

I cant talk for the stones named "La Lorraine M.P.O.P." because i never owned an example of those, iam interested
if the one Peter (Hatzicho) owns is also the same material....the M.P.O.P. Stones were sold from

Ancienne Maison D. Giovannacci, L. & B. Ghelfi which was founded 1845. They also were named “Établissements Belle” and had the Logo with the five Meules and the shortcut M.P.O.P. which stands for “Meules, Pierres, Outillage, Produits” Today the follow up company is known as F.G.B.C.. The stones must have beend sold before 1930, because after that the Company was re-named to F. Ghelfi & Cie..



from left to Right:
Rouge Du Salm unlabelled (the finest i owned till now)
Rouge Du Salm "Goldfisch Wetzstein""
Rouge Du Salm "La Lorraine"
BBW Backing of a french Coti
BBW Backing of a vintage Coti....

1. the unlabelled one has nearly no visible grain or pattern
slurry is dark red

2. the "Goldfisch Wetzstein" looks more red, shows all over
the typical BBW Structure which is also visible more
blue/violet on the "normal BBW" types

3. the "La Lorraine" shares a dark red to violet color, it has
these typical swirled/banded look, which might people
make think that this is a different type of Stone. Iam sure
there are examples around where this is all mixed up and
probably these stones are not as fine as the other ones

4. The BBW Backing coloration tends to darker violet, it shows
a type of holographic pattern, partly this looks white or
silver

5. The BBW Backing coloration is a typial blue to dark violet,
like the normal BBW types



The very fine variant i got as an unlabelled stone:


Color differences Rouge Du Salm / BBW:


I also added a comparison shots of all three Rouge Du Salm Stones which shows that this is the same material...

another thing to add here in this context:

there is also a Belgium Region called "Belgian Lorraine" which is a Part of the Lorraine in the south of Belgium. This actually is besides the Ardennes where the Belgium stones have their origin...so my personal theory here is that the supllier of the labelled "LA LORRAINE" stones might have his origin in this region or was someone who was inspired by this region....

The second trace is that many stones of "LA LORRAINE" have been sold out of Belgium and not from France....

This unlabeled stone without a patter looks fine indeed. Is it a finisher? And, does it feel like a coticule, or it's something "unrelated" to them?

thats a double used Term as Henk mentioned it

oh.sorry. Seems there are too many different Lorraine per page for me there. I was inattentive.

Here is another proof quote about salm==goldfisch
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ml#post1500162

I have a Goldfisch and an unlabelled stone that Henk Bos identified as a Rouge de Salm when he and his wife visited us.

.. that I lost sight of last time.
But here is another question:
there are some references of examples rouge du salm stone but no information about how their identification has been completed: was it a label or may be it was an example from museum or conclusion was made by comparing with example that was mined from mine of Rouge du salm?... or it was just bought from ebay as "du salm"?
Sorry for skepticism

May be it'll be usefull to compare with - bbw macro Ã�—Ã�°Ã�¼Ã�µÑ‚Ã�ºÃ�¸ - Ã�¡Ñ‚Ñ€Ã�°Ã�½Ã�¸Ñâ€Ã�° 2 - myabrasive.ru
My battery is low, so I won't copy it.

Originally Posted by Botanic

oh.sorry. Seems there are too many different Lorraine per page for me there. I was inattentive.

Here is another proof quote about salm==goldfisch
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ml#post1500162

.. that I lost sight of last time.
But here is another question:
there are some references of examples rouge du salm stone but no information about how their identification has been completed: was it a label or may be it was an example from museum or conclusion was made by comparing with example that was mined from mine of Rouge du salm?... or it was just bought from ebay as "du salm"?
Sorry for skepticism

May be it'll be usefull to compare with - bbw macro Ã�—Ã�°Ã�¼Ã�µÑ‚Ã�ºÃ�¸ - Ã�¡Ñ‚Ñ€Ã�°Ã�½Ã�¸Ñ†Ã�° 2 - myabrasive.ru
My battery is low, so I won't copy it.

yeah thats the good Question, the only proof in my point of view is the older Literatur from Charles Gaspard - L'industrie de la Pierre à Rasoir dans la région de Sart Lierneux....
check Page 43 at the end. A pity these are b/w copies so its not a proper evidence...
http://www.coticule.be/heritage.html...Translated.pdf

On the other hand these facts are only confirmed in personal talks between Henk Bos and Maurice Celis, iam sure also Peter (Hatzicho) talked back to Maurice, and for sure i already sent pictures of the stones to Anne-Katrien and Maurice...Peter showed an Example of Rouge Du Salm which Henk owned, he got some examples during the time Burton Rox was active...

Henk mentioned it also here, that Rouge Du Salm was also used as a backing:
"This stone is from before 1980 and is glued with Colofonium. See last picture under the stamp.
Between 1980 and 1986 there have been no Coticules produced.
From 1986 to 1998, Burton Rox's did glue non-natural combos with Araldite. It was the intention to get a thin bond line. The coticules were glued to Rouge du Salm. This stone is much redder than the BBW.
After 1998 "Ardennes Coticule" glued non-natural combos with epoxy which has been thickened with a filler. Henk "

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ml#post1230383

on the third the stones sporadically appear in the mines, so that would be the third reliable evidence....comparing vintage stones (La Lorraine, Lorraine Rouge M.P.O.P. and Goldfisch Wetzstein) to the newly mined ones...

By the way, thanks for sharing that link!