Thread: What's one type of stone you have no interest in?

Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

No I'll agree I find them slow, but that is a subjective thing isn't it. Most naturals are "slow" when compared to synthetics and even some naturals are really slow when compared to each other.. An example, I used to own a bbw that left an amazing polish and shaving edge. It took 3x longer then using a coticule and 5x longer then using water stones.

Agreed, it's subjective. The only razors I sharpen are my own. I don't plan on doing much nick repair, unless I get a wild hair and decide to pick up another antique from ebay. I'll probably keep a synthetic around for that explicit purpose, but beyond that I'm willing to spend the time it takes to get a good polish from a black Arkansas. I've got a small 1x4 black and a 1.5x3 translucent. They've become my finishers, but I'd like an 8x2 or 8x3 set to make life easier. The fact that they'll last a lifetime is an added bonus, if that means losing a little in the speed department I can live with that.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

Am I the only one who finds the Arkansas stones painfully slow? Sure, that's the reason they last longer, but for an edge that's no longer sharp or a bit serious metal removal, they would be my last option, and they are advertised a LOT. I'm 100% sure both US and Canada have plenty of other types of quality stones.
For the coarse grits there are plenty of good sandstones that are faster, for intermediate, both sandstones, slates or other types that don't belong to any of these two famous categories, and for finishers, we know about a lot of good stones including the finishing Arkansas that I agree are good stones.

Yes. I think many find them slow. I do not. If you know how to use them they are as fast as any other stone. Many people use them like a thuri or coticule and they will take you forever used like that. Then you have the issue of them not releasing new particles easily so they tend to go to "sleep" so you have to keep them in a range of usefulness. I have a soft Arkansas stone that if I rough the surface with a DMT or 600 grit sandpaper it will cut as fast (if not faster) than my 800 grit King! I recently removed a chip and went on to set a bevel on an eBay razor and it took no longer than if I would have used my king. If you take the time to talk to some of the people that use them well and learn how to use them properly they are no slower than any other natural. Of course that's subjective too. After a bevel set it takes me 15-20 minutes to finish a razor to an absolutely amazing edge. How much quicker can I do it on my coticule? About the same. Maybe a minute or two quicker and the edge in my opinion is not as sharp or smooth. It's all in how you use them. I will say that they are a more involved stone that require a higher level of skill and not for beginners but someone that can hone well if they take the time to learn them they can give you an edge that maybe only a JNat can give.

Here is an excellent example of taking a razor from bevel set to finish in under 30 minutes with nothing but Arkansas stones by Dave W.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8hhTZtUfmCM

Originally Posted by Steel

Yes. I think many find them slow. I do not. If you know how to use them they are as fast as any other stone. Many people use them like a thuri or coticule and they will take you forever used like that. Then you have the issue of them not releasing new particles easily so they tend to go to "sleep" so you have to keep them in a range of usefulness. I have a soft Arkansas stone that if I rough the surface with a DMT or 600 grit sandpaper it will cut as fast (if not faster) than my 800 grit King! I recently removed a chip and went on to set a bevel on an eBay razor and it took no longer than if I would have used my king. If you take the time to talk to some of the people that use them well and learn how to use them properly they are no slower than any other natural. Of course that's subjective too. After a bevel set it takes me 15-20 minutes to finish a razor to an absolutely amazing edge. How much quicker can I do it on my coticule? About the same. Maybe a minute or two quicker and the edge in my opinion is not as sharp or smooth. It's all in how you use them. I will say that they are a more involved stone that require a higher level of skill and not for beginners but someone that can hone well if they take the time to learn them they can give you an edge that maybe only a JNat can give.

IMHO roughening the surface of the stone does not count as a way to hone. It's like sprinkling the stone with SiC powder. You can hone on it, but that's not the stone's speed, I don't think it was used this way in the past, and you can do that on every stone you have. A Norton 8k or chocera 1k lapped on 36 grit sandpaper will definitely be faster than a nicely lapped stone, but we don't use them this way, and they are less reliable if they need to be roughened every 10 minutes of use instead of that king 800 stone. That "sleeping" stone is the actual surface of the stone and its speed. A roughened stone won't leave the same polished edge than the same stone with the sleeping surface, one of the reasons we lap our new stones.
Relapping the stone every time it starts to cut the way it was made to cut sounds more like a desperate solution when nothing else is available than the secret behind its usefulness. But I do agree that the edge looks nicely polished and smooth on them.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

IMHO roughening the surface of the stone does not count as a way to hone. It's like sprinkling the stone with SiC powder. You can hone on it, but that's not the stone's speed, I don't think it was used this way in the past, and you can do that on every stone you have. A Norton 8k or chocera 1k lapped on 36 grit sandpaper will definitely be faster than a nicely lapped stone, but we don't use them this way, and they are less reliable if they need to be roughened every 10 minutes of use instead of that king 800 stone. That "sleeping" stone is the actual surface of the stone and its speed. A roughened stone won't leave the same polished edge than the same stone with the sleeping surface, one of the reasons we lap our new stones.
Relapping the stone every time it starts to cut the way it was made to cut sounds more like a desperate solution when nothing else is available than the secret behind its usefulness. But I do agree that the edge looks nicely polished and smooth on them.

Ok. That was a lot that I didn't say. From lapping it every 10 minutes to using 36 grit sandpaper. I would disagree about lapping a stone on a DMT or sandpaper before use is not common. A lot of people will lap their stones to keep them flat, clean, and cutting well. I refresh my soft ark maybe every three razors and not every time depending on what it needs. A lot also use a rubber stone to raise a slurry. Hmm. Sounds familiar. Does that mean they are using them wrong? A "sleeping" stone is another way to say it is glazed over. This is not how a stone is supposed to be. Arkies tend to glaze quickly and some prefer them that way. I don't. What is nice is they are versatile also with pressure. There is a lot of misinformation from people who don't know how to use them properly. I have been using them exclusively now with no issue. Setting bevels right on up to finish with absolutely no issue. I guess that's the bottom line. There is no right or wrong way to use a stone. If you can take a blade from start to finish in under 30 minutes with an edge that gives you a BBS in 2 passes with no irritation then hone on honer.

Originally Posted by Steel

Ok. That was a lot that I didn't say. From lapping it every 10 minutes to using 36 grit sandpaper. I would disagree about lapping a stone on a DMT or sandpaper before use is not common. A lot of people will lap their stones to keep them flat, clean, and cutting well. A lot also use a rubber stone to raise a slurry. Hmm. Sounds familiar. Does that mean they are using them wrong? A "sleeping" stone is another way to say it is glazed over. This is not how a stone is supposed to be. Arkies tend to glaze quickly and some prefer them that way. I don't. What is nice is they are versatile also with pressure. There is a lot of misinformation from people who don't know how to use them properly. I have been using them exclusively now with no issue. Setting bevels right on up to finish with absolutely no issue. I guess that's the bottom line. There is no right or wrong way to use a stone. If you can take a blade from start to finish in under 30 minutes with an edge that gives you a BBS in 2 passes with no irritation then hone on honer.

The reason we lap the stones is to keep them flat, not de-glaze them. And the use of slurry is an 100% legitimate method on honing, on the stones that can create slurry. Slurry from an Arkansas stone should be very fast, only, the stone wasn't meant or "made" to be used this way. Arkansas stones are getting glazed by their nature, because of their hardness and since you dislike that feature, you can try a softer stone that does not get glazed. When I'm thinking about Arkansas stones, some types of man made, coarse and hard stones that initially are super fast until they lose their speed come to mind. I agree that there is no "right" or "proper" way to use this or any stone. Place the blade on it, water or oil depending on the type of stone and hone until the edge has the finish of that stone, if it gets hollowed lap it, and clean it after use, like all stones. Their performance changes depending on pressure as you said, but the effect is far more noticeable the softer the metal it is. If I were to use the stone on bronze, copper or gold, I would be delighted by its speed and wouldn't care about the glazing effect it has, but on hard steel, it's a slow stone, and on any other natural stone of similar grit, if you give it a coarse surface, I don't think Arkansas would be faster than that stone as long as it's a good natural stone. Apples to oranges, you can't say a polished surface of a Dalmore yellow or Wastilla is slower than an Arkansas stone with a coarsely lapped surface, these too have this characteristic. Every stone has its tricks including the Arkansas stones, but I'm starting to wonder if your opinion is a bit biased about Arkansas stones, since you've been using them more than other naturals of similar grit.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

The reason we lap the stones is to keep them flat, not de-glaze them. And the use of slurry is an 100% legitimate method on honing, on the stones that can create slurry. Slurry from an Arkansas stone should be very fast, only, the stone wasn't meant or "made" to be used this way. Arkansas stones are getting glazed by their nature, because of their hardness and since you dislike that feature, you can try a softer stone that does not get glazed. When I'm thinking about Arkansas stones, some types of man made, coarse and hard stones that initially are super fast until they lose their speed come to mind. I agree that there is no "right" or "proper" way to use this or any stone. Place the blade on it, water or oil depending on the type of stone and hone until the edge has the finish of that stone, if it gets hollowed lap it, and clean it after use, like all stones. Their performance changes depending on pressure as you said, but the effect is far more noticeable the softer the metal it is. If I were to use the stone on bronze, copper or gold, I would be delighted by its speed and wouldn't care about the glazing effect it has, but on hard steel, it's a slow stone, and on any other natural stone of similar grit, if you give it a coarse surface, I don't think Arkansas would be faster than that stone as long as it's a good natural stone. Apples to oranges, you can't say a polished surface of a Dalmore yellow or Wastilla is slower than an Arkansas stone with a coarsely lapped surface, these too have this characteristic. Every stone has its tricks including the Arkansas stones, but I'm starting to wonder if your opinion is a bit biased about Arkansas stones, since you've been using them more than other naturals of similar grit.

Biased? Me? Hahaha. Wonder no more. I am most definately biased. I have other natural stones - coticule, Guangxi, French hone, slate, ect. But I enjoy the edge off an Arkansas so much that I have committed to learning it through and through before going back to other stones. I was biased toward a Guangxi before experiencing an Arkansas edge so I am sure I will at some point fall in love with another stone natural or synthetic in the future. For now, I am learning that many people use an oil stone the way they would any other stone and I have found through talking with others that Arkansas stones are a different animal all together from burnishing before use to varying pressure to maintaining them.

If you have the luxury of two clean working surfaces on any given ark, best thing to do is to set each surface up differently so you get the most range out of each.

Kidney? or slow and soft or rife with inclusions.