Thread: getting an edge with a coticule

Originally Posted by Utopian

I think that clearly is not true, given that Pithor wrote…

I do not think we can be helpful to newcomers (people that might help us oldies some day) in this sport by presenting this as all white, or all black, as far as coticules! I too know Jared, and other proponents invested in this subject.......but the reality is what it is: many people get them on false expectations/promises, then just flat out get rid of them, as they do not understand what they can really do. Karma is a bitch.... just wanted to give something back and be helpful, after years of receiving from this site, and others, in this subject. That is my motivation! Certainly not trying to increase my post's count!

Originally Posted by Butzy

didnt mean to cause a ruckus. I would say that most of what I have read/researched aligns with what you just said Pithor, though I think fxt913 was possibly speaking more about the history of the stone?

I bought the coticule because I wanted a "do it all" stone (now i know better), and the coticule seemed to be as close as I could get.

Well, such things happen here from time to time, and it's no fault of yours friend. Group A has an affection for X type of hone. Group B had a different experience with them and aren't so affectionate toward them. Just the natural course of things when people from these 2 groups meet that disagreements may arise.

I probably fall on the not so affectionate side of things. My first coti simply does not perform as I would have liked, and we all know how first impressions tend to color things (even though we know they shouldn't). While mine does work as a finishing stone under the right circumstances, if that had fallen into a beginner's hands the end result would've probably been as fxt913 said - stone sold (or thrown out a window) and user swearing never to buy another coticule as long as they live. But I remain open minded toward them. When the time is right, I will buy another - and be more selective about it.

I will clarify…

I agree with Pithor. Among the more than 50 coticules that I have used, I have not found a single one that could not provide a shaveable edge. The quality of the edges do vary, but they all can shave. Now, not all of them are of much use at all for the lower end work, so I fully agree that not all of them are of use as a "one stone solves all problems" hone.

The one coticule for everything concept existed long before SRP. Yes, Bart and a few others promoted the idea that one coticule could be sufficient for all aspects of honing, but it was not exactly pushed here on this forum. I think for the most part most of us tried to put the brakes on the concept. Yes, a lot of coticules can hone a razor from dull to shaving, but that is as much because of the honer as the hone. It is unfortunate that too many naive beginners thought that honing was easy and that one coticule honing was just as easy, but that is not our fault.

I still don't think that karma is involved in coticule honing.

A coticule is as good a stone as the person using it; the same with any other stone.

I own "5" and they are all completely different in the way they perform, but all will produce a good shave.

All Coticules are individuals & should be approached as such.

I have somewhere between 40 and 50, with I have no idea how many loaners are still out there, and I agree with your assessment. I think all of them have their own personalities but all produce a shave-able edge. Some are able to be used for bevel setting and refinement, but their ability to accomplish that is much more variable.

Originally Posted by fxt913

Last, but not least: I am humbled that someone actually commented on my advice given to a novice purely with the intent of helping! It looks like you are very much trying to portray ALL cotis, all of them, natural stones that they are, for all blades, as great for anything, finishing too! If that is your experience, I respect that! But I hope you can accept that there are others who have a different perspective. I have been having a great time with this sport and enjoying every minute of it! I hope you do the same!

Actually, it was you who said that most coticules are not suitable for finishing. I tried to avoid any generalities, as the use of any particular coticule is very much user dependent.

My main point was that you seemed very sure of some core concepts concering coticules and their use that clashed with my experience and information I have read. So I replied to add a different point of view.

I do agree on your stropping advice, as I feel its importance is often overshadowed by discussions about honing. It is a vital part of honing on a coticule (as well as honing/shaving in general) and incidentally the wet shaving aspect I found hardest to master.

I don't cary any resentment towards you, your perspective is as valid as mine. Our ideas differ, that is all, and I felt you presented yours a bit too much like fact.

Best regards,

Pieter

[QUOTE=Pithor;1741843]Actually, it was you who said that most coticules are not suitable for finishing. I tried to avoid any generalities, as the use of any particular coticule is very much user dependent.

------ Yes, and I still stand by that. It is not heresy! Newcomers should know that most (not all) coticules in the market, or ebay....are not suitable for great finishing, especially on newer alloys. They do work well on old carbon blades. There are better natural stones that can finish better, especially on the newer blades. They can all finish, but it is not a great finish, smooth but not sharp enough most of the time, in most of the blades available today, especially as compared to the finish provided by most thuris or jnats. Especially with water only, that is why oil has been used by many, even barbers in Belgium, to increase its finishing quality, which in many cases provides that little oomph needed. Soooo, here am trying to provide some help, from my experience and from some others too. Otherwise, most cotis ARE great pre-finishers, and this fact alone should make them highly desirable, given the fact that few quality natural stones can do this as well. Cotis actually are superior to most other naturals as pre-finishers! Newcomers should focus on cotis as one of the best pre-finishers that may, or may not (if so, there are other options out there) provide great finish. They should try them, and see for themselves.

My main point was that you seemed very sure of some core concepts concering coticules and their use that clashed with my experience and information I have read. So I replied to add a different point of view.
----- I already provided a detailed and itemized response to your comments. You tell me you did not like that I "seemed very sure"? I cannot comment on this!

I think the main takeaway here is that the vast majority of coticules can be used to finish a razor satisfactorily, but a fair percentage of them require considerably more skill/technique from the honer than others, so are much tougher for beginners to use. Some of these stones are *hone, strop, great shave* and others are *hone, strop, fail*; *try another honing technique, fail*; *try another honing technique, great shave* or *give up assuming the stone is useless for razors* with varying multiples of trying new techniques until success is achieved or the person gives up. I think most that have more experience with coticules would agree with this.

Originally Posted by eKretz

I think the main takeaway here is that the vast majority of coticules can be used to finish a razor satisfactorily, but a fair percentage of them require considerably more skill/technique from the honer than others, so are much tougher for beginners to use.

I think this summarizes, in aggregate, a lot of the great feedback i've gotten from the original post and question. Varying techniques may be the trick with my stones.
My 1k waterstone arrives today, so with any luck my biggest issue is an imperfect bevel that I can remedy quite quickly with that stone and then be off to the races! but i'll make sure to keep updating if this is the case or not...
Thanks again everyone for the feedback and support.

Originally Posted by eKretz

I think the main takeaway here is that the vast majority of coticules can be used to finish a razor satisfactorily, but a fair percentage of them require considerably more skill/technique from the honer than others, so are much tougher for beginners to use. Some of these stones are *hone, strop, great shave* and others are *hone, strop, fail*; *try another honing technique, fail*; *try another honing technique, great shave* or *give up assuming the stone is useless for razors* with varying multiples of trying new techniques until success is achieved or the person gives up. I think most that have more experience with coticules would agree with this.

Great to see your input, eKretz! Could you elaborate more on some of the honing techniques that you use/recommend on "hone/strop/fail cases"? Been using cotis for over 20 years....and am quite familiar and use dilucot, unicot etc..... and still use them as my favorite prefinisher/midrange on most of my blades. As far as finishing goes, on the blades (old carbon) I know they work well, I finish on oil and/or lather (tallow....), with good results, smooth even on ATG passes (after a couple gradual slurry dilutions, as need be). I oil finish in a burnished coti, and do midrange work on another one. In some others, Fridours/Inox, or some sweedish steel/japanese hi-HRC.. etc....they work great for WTG pass, but drag on ATG. I know some people try to use a second bevel to finish (Bart...), and some use running water. To me, the cotis I have been using (over 15-16 over the years...) either worked fine for finishing, or just partially....and those need to be pushed up with something else (Black Surgical Arkansas....I know you have a huge one.....) , but they all, universally, pre-finished great.

Last, but not least, I have used Nakayama Asagi slurry in two coties very successfully. No need for anything else. I do not do this routinely, but when I do, as a variation, the results are great! A great upgrade from coti slurry in terms of finish (not midrange). Tried thuri slurry too, and while better than coti slurry, the jnat slurry breaks down very nicely. We all know cotis vary a lot, and that is one reason for the different experience.....but exchanging strategies on how some people make them work better, would be informative.