Thread: getting an edge with a coticule

contrary to what i have read many times, i find the quality of the coticule slurry stone to be very important, like with japanese natural stones. i find it difficult to get a decent edge when the slurry stone is not on a par with the coticule base stone. this may also explain why a jnat slurry may work well on a coticule.

hans

Originally Posted by fxt913

fxt913, I had no idea that the coticule was a oil stone first and then a waterstone. a lot of what i read before buying said to only use water and didn't say anything about keeping a stone without using slurry for a "finisher" i suppose since i have two stones now (ugh) i can try this method.
.....
I must say we are getting spoiled these days

One important point is oil cannot be removed! Water will evaporate.

Another important point hinges on the "getting spoiled" observation.
There are tricks to make things work in ways that push the limit
of the material and this includes many of the natural rocks.

One example is the use of lather on a barbers hone or coticule.
The same great lather that allows some of us to shave whiskers
will give the razor a smooth glide on the hone in a way that allows
only the smallest bit of an abrasive grain to touch steel.

Oil on a face is one of the shave tricks that allows the razor to slide
over skin to encounter a whisker and slice it off. I hate oiling my
face but others find it necessary.

The old carborundum barber hones like No's 101, 101A and 102
are coarse compared to modern water stones. If you run water over
many of them it will bead because the barber added oil or even
petroleum jelly (Vaseline) to trick the hone into acting as if it was finer.
Oil keeps swarf on the hone and for some it will make the hone act
as if it was finer/smoother.

Oil on a lot of old steel also protected the steel from rust.

One important point is oil cannot be removed <------ !!!!

IF* you keep your stone clean, oil isn't problematic. Something greasy like Vaseline I could see putting up a fight to clean up. Mineral oil (the base for most honing oils) isn't so bad. A quick wipe down with a paper towel and mineral spirits tends to clean it right up. You'd never know that oil was ever applied to my coticule.

I've discovered a thin watery shave lather can give many rocks that little extra 'oomph.' My coticule is the one exception, but it works well for all the rest of my natural stones. It does cause water to bead up, there's a thin film of lather that never quite comes off. But it also doesn't negatively impact honing so I'm OK with that. A quick scrub with a brillo pad or similar would probably clear it up without messing up the burnished honing surface but...if it ain't broke, why fix it?

Originally Posted by Marshal

IF* you keep your stone clean, oil isn't problematic.
.....
A quick scrub with a brillo pad or similar would probably clear it up without messing up the burnished honing surface but...if it ain't broke, why fix it?

Burnished surfaces are another old school method to allow a rock to hone
a lot finer than the grains in a rock might indicate. Burnishing on my
Surgical Black Arkansas is key to my liking that rock. Your Surgical Black Arkansas
may need something else...

This opens the door to two basic abrasive interactions plastic flow and cutting.
Some depends on the steel, my softer steel razors are much improved on a burnished
surface while my hard steel razors enjoy abrasives like a finer Shapton Glass hone.

Some compare diamond and CBN based on this. CBN at 0.25 micron seems to cut
steel faster than diamond at 0.75 micron.

Some finishing hones balance the thin line of a burnished surface vs. an abraded
surface.

In the end it is your face, your whiskers, your lather, your strop, ... your shave test.

Now off to shop for an unobtanium hone.

Very much so. A burnished surface is basically the entire premise of barber hones. Many are formed from fairly coarse grit but burnished to a very fine surface, which produces shallow wide scratches in the steel, sort of mimicking a much finer hone.

Regarding coticule methods, there are many and varied. It basically comes down to working with what you've got. I gave Marshal some things to try in the thread he posted that helped get him on track to a good edge, but for the most part one just needs to try all the different honing methods/tricks until the one that works is hit upon. Some are nearly as easy to use as synths, others a real pain - like Marshal's stone.

I have a vintage Barber's Pet "extra extra choice selected" coticule that is an absolute joy to use. It can be used with plain water after a Chosera 1k and produces an excellent shaving edge. Some coticules are better when not used with slurry in my experience.

I also have never had a problem with a coticule and oil - all that I have used weren't at all absorbent or porous, but I'm sure there are some out there that are porous enough to soak the oil in and possibly cause issues, so I always advise that folks try just a small area with oil first to see if it will wash off okay. If it doesn't, a quick lapping with a diamond plate will always remove the oil and allow the water to sheet on the surface again as long as it hasn't been allowed to soak in for more than a few minutes.

Originally Posted by eKretz

A burnished surface is basically the entire premise of barber hones. Many are formed from fairly coarse grit but burnished to a very fine surface, which produces shallow wide scratches in the steel, sort of mimicking a much finer hone.

This is exactly the reason why I am so opposed to lapping a barber hone unless it is truly necessary. The fine surface is lost when lapping is done and it is hard to bring that fine surface back.

Indeed, it can be a lot of work to bring back a good burnish on a barber hone, just as it is to create one on an Ark. Once a barber hone has lost that shine and goes to a dull matte finish no matter how high it is brought up in polish it's pointless to try using it as a finisher again. On these particular hones the binder has started to fail, and it's likely that no amount of polishing will burnish them up as well as they originally were - they will just keep releasing giant grit and binder particles.

Hey guys! I just wanted to report back like i said i would and let folks know that i finally got the feel for one of my coticules last night and was able to get a semi-acceptable edge with it on two separate razors. after a fair bit of stropping i dare say that i could shave with them.
I really appreciate all the advice on here as it definitely helped. Over two months of trying and i finally think i'm getting the hang of it. i see why lots of coticules end up on ebay from disgruntled purchasers. Big shout out to nun2sharp as well who gave me a call to walk me through some of the finer points of finishing a blade.
Still wont put a stone to some of my nicer razors yet. but we're getting there. Thanks again
-Tom

Originally Posted by Utopian

I have somewhere between 40 and 50, with I have no idea how many loaners are still out there, and I agree with your assessment. I think all of them have their own personalities but all produce a shave-able edge. Some are able to be used for bevel setting and refinement, but their ability to accomplish that is much more variable.

You have between 40 and 50??? Seriously!!! So you basically got all of them from the market, and that's why I can't find one!

Joking aside, I'm glad I read that thread. What I translate from it is "learn to do a goob job on synthetics, then give coticules a shot", unless you have a mentor who knows how to use these. The learning curve is a bit too much for n00bs.

Originally Posted by malaverdiere

You have between 40 and 50??? Seriously!!! So you basically got all of them from the market, and that's why I can't find one!

Joking aside, I'm glad I read that thread. What I translate from it is "learn to do a goob job on synthetics, then give coticules a shot", unless you have a mentor who knows how to use these. The learning curve is a bit too much for n00bs.

For anyone reading this that's looking for their first stone(s)... i think this is a good, succinct, take-away from the discussion here. let my pain be your gain