Thread: Natural hone for setting the bevel?

Originally Posted by Vasilis

By the way I think we went quite off topic.

I think we did. The topic was natural hones for bevel setting

By the way, as a fellow from Cyprus, the word in Greek for sandstone is Psammite/ψαμμίτης.
With a quick google search you might find something interesting quarried locally in Cyprus.
It's not a rare material, the difficulty is to find the correct particle size, abrasion resistance-you don't want the stone to give the particles easily otherwise it would be either coarse or will have a short "lifespan", the lack of inclusions, be that coarse particles or lines that break easily and are leaving big pieces in the slurry, anyway, you want something that feels honing-friendly.
When you find, lap it nice and good until flat, sandpaper on a piece of glass the easiest way, AND FIRST TEST THE STONE ON A CHEAP KNIFE! Don't use a filarmonica 8/8", you'll go to razor hell. And again, when you do find some, I want a piece or two!

Originally Posted by onimaru55

In fact Iwasaki stopped using tamahagane because 50% of the razors did not meet his high expectations & were scrapped. The ones in circulation are gems.

I don't blame him. It would be mightily frustrating to see half or more of one's hard work thrown in the scrap bin with every batch produced.

I used to and still occasionally use a Washita. I have an old 4x12 monster that was passed on to me by a family member. Newer ones are not as good. I think Norton closed down the quarry they once used. And off topic it’s not the hardness that is the gremlin on using naturals but the wear/abrasion resistance of the newer modern alloys that can make it a pain. If you take A2 and 1095 to the same Rc the A2 is still going to take longer to sharpen

Originally Posted by CrownCork

I used to and still occasionally use a Washita. I have an old 4x12 monster that was passed on to me by a family member. Newer ones are not as good. I think Norton closed down the quarry they once used. And off topic it’s not the hardness that is the gremlin on using naturals but the wear/abrasion resistance of the newer modern alloys that can make it a pain. If you take A2 and 1095 to the same Rc the A2 is still going to take longer to sharpen

You are partly right, some alloying elements do make steel extra wear resistant, first element that comes to mind being Vanadium. A CPM S30V knife I bought is a PITA for example, and there are many even less hone friendly steels out there. But hardness plays a very important role too.

Edit to add a bit more detail, without the heat treating, an alloying element does not form the carbides that add the extra wear-abrasion resistant effect. That's why you can't have them, and their effect without the hardening and hardness.

Any steel alloy that forms any significant amount of the harder carbides during heat treat (tungsten, vanadium, chromium, etc.) will be the devil to hone with a natural stone. Trying to hone plain carbon steel hardened to a high level (65Rc or higher) would probably fool most people into thinking they were honing one of these alloys. Both play a significant role in difficulty of honing, but the hard carbides are particularly nasty.

At the coarser level, natural stones can still cut around these carbides, but in many cases this amounts to basically eroding the steel matrix around the carbides until they fall out. Even synthetic stones have trouble cutting the harder carbides, and synthetic abrasive are considerably harder than most of those found in most natural stones.

The very best bevel setting natural hone would be a blue belgian. But, why use a natural when you can get a Naniwa 1000 or better, a diamond hone and get predictable results?.

Hope I don't get upset so many gentlemen!.

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Yesterday I had a razor with pretty big chips, it took too long on the BBW and I had to bust out an extremely fast Coticule on thick slurry, that thing cuts so fast I can't even believe it.

It's a vintage one, so sadly I can't comment on what layer that Coticule is, also I have no idea which modernly mined ones are very fast on slurry; but if you get one like that, they would make very quick work of setting a bevel or small to medium chip repair.

As to a previous comment, I prefer using natural stones, I have a Naniwa 1K and a diamond hone, but they're really my last resort type of stones;

that's a personal thing, as I find natural to have a little more room for error and more pleasant to use, I'm sometimes a little heavy handed ergo I have to be mindful on the the lower grit synthetics

Yes. The artificial hones are MILES better than the guesswork of any natural hone. If ever would be an commercial interest in hones for straight razors, even Apple Computer would make one, better and with a finite life… But, let's be honest, the majority of people are happy with shitty tools because there will always be a "better and improved version of whatever they want". We must stop thinking in those "good ole days!".