Thread: Natural hone for setting the bevel?

Okay thanks

Oh, and as regards the earlier discussion - the T8 razor would laugh at a natural hone bevel set. I got almost nowhere with a DMT-slurried Chosera 1k.

Way too much monkey business to read through this entire thread. So I don’t know if it was mentioned but I use a Lily White Washita exclusively to set bevels and hone 3-5 razors per week. I think that says it all.

Originally Posted by eKretz

Oh, and as regards the earlier discussion - the T8 razor would laugh at a natural hone bevel set. I got almost nowhere with a DMT-slurried Chosera 1k.

I don't know anything about all this super hard metal that has been talked about, but if it can not be sharpened . It might as well be a pry bar. It seems pointless to need something to shave with that has to be sharpened by NASA.

Originally Posted by AlienEdge

I don't know anything about all this super hard metal that has been talked about, but if it can not be sharpened . It might as well be a pry bar. It seems pointless to need something to shave with that has to be sharpened by NASA.

...but the point is "you will have to hone it less, so it's more reliable". I'm jesting, no offense of course and I think nobody can say what I just wrote in quotes above and really really believe it, and I hope no hard feelings from you
I would have liked a quality razor made from this material though to tell you my sin. And I bet it costs a small fortune.

eKertz and other knowledgeable people, I have a followup metallurgical question;
Ripping out the carbides, whole, is this something that constantly happens? These crystals, don't they break or chip from the abrasives? Should this happen, we are left with some thing like a broken crystal held together by the matrix that doesn't seem useful in steel, but still. Otherwise we are left with an edge of pretty much plain iron (solved with stropping maybe?), and speaking from experience, iron or even perlite doesn't shave no matter how well do you hone it. Now, 5 micron carbides, these are huge if you think that setting the bevel you end up with an edge that at the very point is about a micron/half a micron, thick (don't ask for references, it's in the forum somewhere with photos). So, these bigger carbides, they do nothing at the end? Or we do find them smaller?
I also wanted to ask about dendritic structures in steel and how do they break but that's too much.

Originally Posted by Vasilis

eKertz and other knowledgeable people, I have a followup metallurgical question;
Ripping out the carbides, whole, is this something that constantly happens? These crystals, don't they break or chip from the abrasives? Should this happen, we are left with some thing like a broken crystal held together by the matrix that doesn't seem useful in steel, but still. Otherwise we are left with an edge of pretty much plain iron (solved with stropping maybe?), and speaking from experience, iron or even perlite doesn't shave no matter how well do you hone it. Now, 5 micron carbides, these are huge if you think that setting the bevel you end up with an edge that at the very point is about a micron/half a micron, thick (don't ask for references, it's in the forum somewhere with photos). So, these bigger carbides, they do nothing at the end? Or we do find them smaller?
I also wanted to ask about dendritic structures in steel and how do they break but that's too much.

This sounds like needing to know the tinsel strength in dental floss before you use it . Also I have never heard of razors made out of this stuff you guys are listing . I know carbon steel and stainless steel razors. The razors I own hone well. The barber hones all work well . The stones I have do their job with easy. This is why I like to debate things. I want to understand the problems on here.

Also you can't up set me with the things you say. I don't have thin skin. I love these debates . I think this site should be more offensive. If you seen someone about to put the razor the wrong way on a strop you would probably yell out at them. On the forum when you read some thing dumb or wrong . It seems the rule is don't say anything because feeling are involved. I don't believe in everyone gets a trophy. Are he was just trying to help . If the help is no good let them know it . You would be helping them as well.

Originally Posted by AlienEdge

Also you can't up set me with the things you say. I don't have thin skin. I love these debates . I think this site should be more offensive. If you seen someone about to put the razor the wrong way on a strop you would probably yell out at them. On the forum when you read some thing dumb or wrong . It seems the rule is don't say anything because feeling are involved. I don't believe in everyone gets a trophy. Are he was just trying to help . If the help is no good let them know it . You would be helping them as well.

A lot of people come here who are new so yelling at them serves no purpose other than to drive them away. You can always voice your opinion in a gentlemanly manner & if not there is always the pm system if you really want to get into it with someone & they are happy to respond but otherwise it just becomes a bunch of cranky old men arguing & that doesn't help people who need answers to problems.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

A lot of people come here who are new so yelling at them serves no purpose other than to drive them away. You can always voice your opinion in a gentlemanly manner & if not there is always the pm system if you really want to get into it with someone & they are happy to respond but otherwise it just becomes a bunch of cranky old men arguing & that doesn't help people who need answers to problems.

Okay check your pm

For Vasilis: The T8 I used for that razor is known as a "High Speed Steel" and was often used for cutting/machining other softer steels back in the day. These days mostly tungsten carbide, ceramics or cubic boron nitride are used for machining. The carbides mainly serve to extend the life of the cutting edge for most similar purposes by adding tiny ultrahard particles. Some might think the benefit to a razor might be extended edge holding - but really the higher hardness does more for that for razor purposes IMO.

On a knife it's a little different because the steel matrix wears away faster than the carbides, which leaves a sort of "micro-toothed" apex. Additionally, when the carbides get ripped out, they leave a little jagged edge behind, then that wears down to expose more carbides, etc. So for knives and a "sawing" or draw cut, it is definitely beneficial to edge holding.

Honing the T8 razor really isn't that difficult - with diamond abrasives it's quite simple, and the edge can be brought up even further using a diamond or CBN pasted strop. The edge can be finished with plain synth stones as well, but I wouldn't want to set a bevel with anything other than diamond or CBN - it would take forever.

As far as whether these carbides always rip out - no they don't. Sometimes they stay put when regular synthetic abrasives are used and sometimes they don't. Synthetic abrasives like AlOx or SiC can cut them (some better than others) just not as cleanly as diamond or CBN. Truth be told, 4-5 micron carbides are pretty large in terms of the scale of a razor edge (which can apparently actually approach 0.1 micron on a very keen edge).

In terms of razor use, I personally would rather have a razor at 64/65 Rc from plain carbon steel - I don't think the carbides do much for razor longevity comparing to other razors I've used, and they are a severe detriment to ease of honing.