Thread: 20K vs 12K after dovo black paste

The burr from a synthetic stone coarser than around #8000 will not come off easily, and causes wicked razor burn for me. The false edge is also not durable. A finer synthetic stone will also leave a burr, but it is small. Linen will remove it. Then, using a leather strop will make a shaving edge.

I use synthetic stones only to set the bevels. My preference is to use an Ark, after removing the burr, to make a sharp edge.

I use a strop for months before needing to "renew" the edge on an Ark. I use the synthetics only if I have damaged the edge.

Originally Posted by 32t

I am having a hard time envisioning this..

So you create a burr with the 3000 and/or the 5000.

Then your tear the burr away with polish on a rag and then create a burr less edge with the 10,000 to then strop.

Why is the burr important with the 3000/5000 and not beyond?

I thought the burr was something to avoid in honing straight razors. I thought the burr was a term from knife honing. I’ve been here coming on four years, reading, watching videos on razors, honing my own 40 something razors with various synthetic and natural stones. So please explain this raising a burr thing.

Originally Posted by cliveruss

The burr from a synthetic stone coarser than around #8000 will not come off easily, and causes wicked razor burn for me. The false edge is also not durable. A finer synthetic stone will also leave a burr, but it is small. Linen will remove it. Then, using a leather strop will make a shaving edge.

I use synthetic stones only to set the bevels. My preference is to use an Ark, after removing the burr, to make a sharp edge.

I use a strop for months before needing to "renew" the edge on an Ark. I use the synthetics only if I have damaged the edge.

So I had to look up a false edge.

that means your bevel isn't set. Right?

I can maybe see using a burr to verify that your bevel is set at 1,000 at the max and then why would you want a burr after that?

Originally Posted by 32t

So I had to look up a false edge.

that means your bevel isn't set. Right?

I can maybe see using a burr to verify that your bevel is set at 1,000 at the max and then why would you want a burr after that?

Burrs happen:
1. When you use too much pressure.
2. When you are restoring an edge & some parts sharpen before others.
3 When you hone a lot on one side.
4. When knife guys try honing razors like they hone knives.
5. When you hone past an already good edge.

I'd bet that list is incomplete but whatever small burr you might create, on synthetic or natural, is always easily removed by the next stone.

A false edge is another way of describing a burr, or foil edge which flips from side to side with each alternate stroke. In grinding any new edge on steel, whether a knife or razor, using a synthetic stone, a burr is formed. Just because it is made from a stone finer than #1000, or that you can't see it, does not mean that it is not there. The important thing for me is to remove the relatively large burr before creating a final edge, and new very small burr, on my finishing stone. If the finishing stone is a #10k synthetic, the burr will be microscopically small and can be removed by stropping with linen, followed by polishing the final shaving edge with leather. My experience finishing with an Ark is that it cuts in a different way, leaving an edge that is smoothed, perhaps by burnishing more than cutting. The grit level of an Ark is around #1200 and we know that, in theory, you can't finish on such a "coarse" stone, but in practice, that is how I get my finest, most durable razor edge.

The 20K is an interesting and aggressive stone. Make sure to lap it flat, it is very hard and difficult to lap. I can also trash a Diamond Plate, use lots of water, under running water works. One side of mine was much flatter than the other, I use a 140 grit plate, finished on 600 plate.

Grid mark it several times, slurry will wash off the pencil, but it will still not be flat.

If you do too many laps the edge can be harsh, it is much better strictly as a finisher, doing only a few final laps to add keenness, 2-3 laps to a finished edge. Works great for adding keenness to a natural edge. You will have to experiment to find the sweet spot, one extra lap can make a big difference, (causing weepers or feel harsh).

If you make a burr, cut it off on the corner of the stone, you will get a stronger keener edge. I always cut off the 1k edge. 1 lite stroke on the stone, then re-set the edge on the 4k, it only takes 10-20 laps to reset a jointed edge. There is a lot written about “Jointing/Killing an edge”. Here is a good one, (Why Kill an Edge).

Stropping between stones also helps to straighten the fin and or removing a burr/flash. I strop on a Chrome Oxide pasted Sailcloth canvas or clean firehose between stones when honing.

There are several different kinds of burrs, they are flash, excess metal that is so thin it is unsupported by the rest of the edge. Honing edge trailing will create a longer burr than spine trailing. Single direction honing is less likely to create flash/ burr than bidirectional honing.

The goal is not to intentionally create a burr, (as in knife honing) but as the metal is thinned at the edge, one is created. Usually regular edge leading honing thins and cuts it off. But if the edge is uneven, burrs can be created where the edge is longer than other spots. Jointing/killing create an even, straight edge that can easily be narrowed so the two bevels are meeting again. Stropping on an aggressive strop, tears off uneven microscopic flashing.

Remember the goal is two flat bevels that meet in a straight edge.

Took my 7 day set of Heljestrands and took out 3 razors to do some testing / comparing on.

I took these razors through a Naniwa synthetic progression finishing on the 12K Naniwa to even the playing field.

Then I finished the razors all on a different stone under running water. The Suehiro 20K, Escher, La Grise Coticule. All stropped on a Herold strop with white chalk and then leather. [No abrasive pastes in order to make a clear comparison of these stones themselves, maybe later I'll try with paste].

Test shaved today: all razors shaved very well, a noobie would probably not notice much difference. But they all feel different in shaving and on the skin.

I must say that the 20K is VERY close to a natural finisher. (I hear it being compared to a good Jnat, but I don't have much experiences with those, so I can't make that call)

However it's a very good stone, improves over the 12K, is very sharp and very smooth and feels as close to a top tier natural finisher out of all synthetics I've tried straight off the hone.

The Escher is also very sharp and very smooth, it has that hard to describe natural feel, but it feels good, shaves very well and easily and feels a bit tamer on the skin than the 20K, also felt keener than the Coticule.

The Coticule at first felt a tad duller, but that must've been only a feeling and not a reality because after my initial feeling and in going ATG it shaved flawlessly and effortlessly. That natural feeling feels very easy on the skin, like butter.


The La Grise Coticule is the clear winner for skin friendliness (although this is what the La Grise layer is especially known for), followed by the Escher and the 20K in that order, which is not saying much as these are all very skin friendly.


The Escher fits in between the Coticule and 20K, it shaves more "effortlessly" than the Coticule, SEEMS a bit sharper whilst also being very smooth and skin friendly.

The 20K is easily the most efficient shaver. The differences are very small compared to the other stones. What this stone does that the others do less or not do, it can draw blood from very tiny bumps in the skin, telling me it's probably the most aggressive shaver of the three, you won't even notice that you do it though and it doesn't happen that often though, so nothing to be concerned about and it does it WAY less than other synthetic finishers that I had the experience with. But it's where the difference between a real natural stone (for me Escher or Coticule) shows a bit, although not by much.


These are 3 top tier stones and all give outstanding but different shaves. It's extremely hard to choose between these.
I had my mind made up beforehand thinking I'd pick the clear winner and finish all my razors on that stone. But nope, that's not going to happen.
I'll have my 7 day set set-up with 2x 20K, 2x Escher and 2x La Grise, with one left over I'll probably pick another Coticule as they present a slight difference between those stones / veins.
And it's fun to be able to decide which edge to shave with and if that day I don't like it, I'd just pick another one.

Note that the differences are EXTREMELY small between these stones, but for an advanced shaver and honer you can clearly tell.
All three are very very smooth and capable finishers that deliver outstanding edges.


TL;DR: All 3 are fantastic finishers. Suehiro 20K is the most efficient shaving. La Grise Coticule is the most skin friendly. Escher is the best of both worlds.



Note: When I'm referring to the Coticule, I'm only referring to (my) La Grise stone, I haven't tried a direct comparison with other veins. Different findings might happen if done so.

Note 2: More generally speaking: the Coticules I use now and am able to get perfectly fine shaves from have been a PITA in the past due to technique in honing, stropping and shaving. It has taken me quite a while to get my honing and shaving to where I can get good shaves out of most of my equipment. So there are variables in play not stated or shown.

As a coticule user I appreciate your efforts. I have been happy with my edges and am still figuring out the 3 cotis I own. As you and others have said, each has its own characteristics and it takes some time to learn what each is capable of.

As part of a recent purchase of a hard coticule I also received a small Thuringian and I am still trying to determine where that best fits in the progression.

After the coticules, I finish on a Vermio which seems quite hard and Griffiths suggests is somewhere between 12-15K. It does polish the edge very nicely. I had been thinking of going to the next level of HAD and acquiring a 20K, but think I’ll hold off on that for a while.

Originally Posted by DZEC

As a coticule user I appreciate your efforts. I have been happy with my edges and am still figuring out the 3 cotis I own. As you and others have said, each has its own characteristics and it takes some time to learn what each is capable of.

As part of a recent purchase of a hard coticule I also received a small Thuringian and I am still trying to determine where that best fits in the progression.

After the coticules, I finish on a Vermio which seems quite hard and Griffiths suggests is somewhere between 12-15K. It does polish the edge very nicely. I had been thinking of going to the next level of HAD and acquiring a 20K, but think I’ll hold off on that for a while.

I'm a Coticule user at heart, especially since the razor hone I inherited from my great-grandfather is a natural combo Coticule. I also visited Bart and he taught me how to hone on a Coticule and how to strop a razor (something I'm still grateful for to this day; something I wish I could've done with my great-grandfather, but alas)
There's something to be said about the skin friendliness of Coticules that I adore. I've been messing with BBWs for a decade as well, but they remain a bigger mystery to me, with very good and lesser results, but extremely capable hones in their own right and purpose.

Variety is the spice of life, HAD has been an on and off thing for me. I finally caved and got the 20K. A decision I don't regret.

I honestly know nothing about Vermio stones, but I'm intrigued and will do some research.


I'd been perfectly happy with only Escher and Coticule edges and my Naniwa 12K edges + dovo black paste, but the 20K does bring something extra to the table.
It's a sure thing, consistent finisher and delivers very good sharp and smooth edges. Something that can be a struggle on naturals. If all else fails, I'll finish on my 20K and be done and happy. It's probably also a mental thing, eases the mind.

It does give a different feel than naturals, but that's not a negative thing per se. I quite enjoy it.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Burrs happen:
1. When you use too much pressure.
2. When you are restoring an edge & some parts sharpen before others.
3 When you hone a lot on one side.
4. When knife guys try honing razors like they hone knives.
5. When you hone past an already good edge.

I'd bet that list is incomplete but whatever small burr you might create, on synthetic or natural, is always easily removed by the next stone.

I reread some of these posts and #5 deserves some more thought.