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Thread: 20K vs 12K after dovo black paste

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    Senior Member TristanLudlow's Avatar
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    Default 20K vs 12K after dovo black paste

    I've been messing around with a lot of different finishes on my razors with Escher, Coticules and Naniwas.

    But have found that a finish off of the 12K Naniwa followed by the dovo black pasted strop gives an edge that leaves nothing to be desired.


    I've been contemplating getting the Suehiro 20k, but I'm hearing mixed things and don't think I need anything above the 12K. (and the 20k seems stupidly expensive for what it is)

    I do notice the differences between the Escher, Coticule and Naniwa edges all stropped on the black paste. It's the little details n'at.
    Contrary to my usual preferences, the 12K takes the cake here, stunningly good edges and the black paste does everything you'd want happen to a synthetic finished edge, it "cures" all the characteristics you might like less about a synthetic. It's very skin friendly and very smooth. It also shaves the best out of all the different stones mentioned.

    Anyhow, as most people, I tend to push my edges a bit ever so slightly for irrational reasons.
    So I wondered if a 20K stone would give some sort of improvement.

    Has anyone tried finishing on the 20K followed by stropping on the black paste? Would like to hear if you've done so.
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    Senior Member Robini's Avatar
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    I LOVE the 20K! currently, I am going from the Naniwa Snow White 8K to the 20K and could not be happier with the edge I am getting. I have never used any pasted strop following the 20K.
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    Rich

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    Senior Member TristanLudlow's Avatar
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    I decided to pull the trigger on one, I knew it was only going to be a matter of time, HAD n'at
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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    All I can is that I have been using a Naniwa progression for years now finishing on the 12K SS hone followed by stropping on a Crox sprayed hanging felt strop. That gives me an edge like you are describing. Recently picked up a 16K Shapton glass hone to use as a finisher following the 12K Nainwa. After stropping the 16K shapton edge on a hanging Crox sprayed felt strop the edge maybe a hair sharper. I'd almost bet the you will find a bit of increased sharpness with the 20K but not hugely so. I'm really interested what you do find out.

    Bob
    Life is a terminal illness in the end

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    I have a Suehiro Gokumyo 10k stone. It is very nice. I see no reason to buy a 20k. The strops, pasted and clean, "finish" the edge. I understand why you get your best edge from your 12k. Any higher grit makes no practical difference to preparation for stropping.

    The important thing for me is to remove any synthetic stone burr before polishing on the final stone. I use a Naniwa Professional 3000, but a 5000 would also be fine, as a final step to setting the bevel. They sharpen the bevel quickly, but leave typical synthetic stone burrs - very small, but real face rippers. Stropping does not remove the burr, so I polish it off with aluminum oxide polish (most metal polishes use this grit, so any works) on a small piece of folded paper towel which absorbs/embeds any rogue grit particles. I use an old bottle of silver polish. I wipe along the razor edge until the burr is removed (inspect with a 10x loupe). Then I use the 10k Gok to finish the edge before stropping. I would not shave off the Gok edge, but it is a good preparation for the strops.

    "Seeing" the burr takes some skill. Once you know what it looks like, it is fairly easy to see with a 10x loupe. I used a stereo microscope to learn what to look for. I now recognize a burr in good light (like the sun) without any magnification. With my experience, I know the burr is there, without looking, so I remove it.

    The mud stones (Thuringians, Coticules, Jnats) seem to remove the burr in the slurry, so a separate burr removal step is not necessary.

    I now skip the muds and use hard stones to finish. After the fast cutting synthetics and burr removal, I use hard Arkansas stone with a thin mineral oil as a cutting fluid. Translucent stones show swarf, because they are white, but there is almost no visible swarf at this finishing stage, so black Arks are also great. Some of the more vitreous stones, like Jasper or Jadeite will burnish the edge, but I find that the novaculite stones are my favorite finishers - followed by stropping of course.

    I think a good Ark is about the same price as a 20k Gok.

    Oil for an Ark or water for a Gok? I like a few drops of oil, dripped on the surface in a creative pattern! The used oil wipes off with microfiber cloth. All that water, rust, and dry NY Winter hands, is only tolerated for the occasional bevel setting.
    Last edited by cliveruss; 04-14-2019 at 04:05 PM.
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    Gatling-Gun Jerry Gasman's Avatar
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    The 20K will give you the slightest amount of more keen. At that level, it's hard to get much more than a 12K but it does give a bit more. I love my 20K. And the fact that I know I'm at the highest level has helped to end my synthetic HAD. Was it worth the price? Nope. But I know my edge is as keen as possible. I don't think the steel on a razor could take any finer grit without breaking down. And it makes for one fine looking bevel!

    Enjoy the new 20K. I've used Crox after the 20K and found it does help with a little more smoothness. But I try not to use paist much. I want the stone to do the work.
    It's just Sharpening, right?
    Jerry...

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    Senior Member PaulKidd's Avatar
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    How about this sequence:

    12K - Thuri - G20 - Black Arkie

    I'll have to try this, ie inserting the thuri in order to remove any burrs; then the 20K,
    followed by the Arkie to somewhat mellow the edge. I don't imagine that the 20K
    would re-create much of a burr, if any.

    Then I'd like to compare that to a 12K-Thuri-20K sequence, followed by CrOx on felt.

    I like the idea of using polish on a paper towel to remove any burrs. That might just
    help to keep the strops free of debris. If it works, then maybe the Thuri add-on
    wouldn't be necessary. It's worth a try.

    Always chasing that elusive "super keen, but smooth as silk" edge, don'tcha know.

    Thanks for the ideas!
    "If you come up to it, and you just can't do it, then that's jolly well where you are."
    Lord Buckley

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    After the 12,000 grit Naniwa, I follow with the 20,000 Gokumyo, then use a strop treated with 0.25 suspended diamond powder, followed by a strop treated with green Chromium Oxide.

    None of this is essential, and the 20,000 Gokumyo was indeed quite expensive (even if I bought mine directly from Japan), but I never had keener, smoother edges.

    To my way of thinking the stones give me the sharpness and the treated strops give me the smoothness that I am both looking for.

    If necessary, I could probably shave off an 8,000 grit edge, and the 12,000 gives quite a nice edge, but to me the investment in the further refinement of the edge was worth it and it is an investment that profits 70 odd razors and that I need to make only once.

    I guess, it’s like the difference between a $20 and a $40 bottle of ...... (insert here your favourite tipple).


    B.
    Last edited by beluga; 04-16-2019 at 02:40 AM.

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    Senior Member Longhaultanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gasman View Post
    I want the stone to do the work.
    Yep! Steel, stone, linen, leather.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cliveruss View Post
    I have a Suehiro Gokumyo 10k stone. It is very nice. I see no reason to buy a 20k. The strops, pasted and clean, "finish" the edge. I understand why you get your best edge from your 12k. Any higher grit makes no practical difference to preparation for stropping.

    The important thing for me is to remove any synthetic stone burr before polishing on the final stone. I use a Naniwa Professional 3000, but a 5000 would also be fine, as a final step to setting the bevel. They sharpen the bevel quickly, but leave typical synthetic stone burrs - very small, but real face rippers. Stropping does not remove the burr, so I polish it off with aluminum oxide polish (most metal polishes use this grit, so any works) on a small piece of folded paper towel which absorbs/embeds any rogue grit particles. I use an old bottle of silver polish. I wipe along the razor edge until the burr is removed (inspect with a 10x loupe). Then I use the 10k Gok to finish the edge before stropping. I would not shave off the Gok edge, but it is a good preparation for the strops.

    "Seeing" the burr takes some skill. Once you know what it looks like, it is fairly easy to see with a 10x loupe. I used a stereo microscope to learn what to look for. I now recognize a burr in good light (like the sun) without any magnification. With my experience, I know the burr is there, without looking, so I remove it.

    The mud stones (Thuringians, Coticules, Jnats) seem to remove the burr in the slurry, so a separate burr removal step is not necessary.

    I now skip the muds and use hard stones to finish. After the fast cutting synthetics and burr removal, I use hard Arkansas stone with a thin mineral oil as a cutting fluid. Translucent stones show swarf, because they are white, but there is almost no visible swarf at this finishing stage, so black Arks are also great. Some of the more vitreous stones, like Jasper or Jadeite will burnish the edge, but I find that the novaculite stones are my favorite finishers - followed by stropping of course.

    I think a good Ark is about the same price as a 20k Gok.

    Oil for an Ark or water for a Gok? I like a few drops of oil, dripped on the surface in a creative pattern! The used oil wipes off with microfiber cloth. All that water, rust, and dry NY Winter hands, is only tolerated for the occasional bevel setting.
    I am having a hard time envisioning this..

    So you create a burr with the 3000 and/or the 5000.

    Then your tear the burr away with polish on a rag and then create a burr less edge with the 10,000 to then strop.

    Why is the burr important with the 3000/5000 and not beyond?
    "Let fear push you. Not slow you down."

    Tim

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