Thread: A couple of quetions about hones

Originally Posted by RezDog

First let’s separate two issue. Restoration and general honing. I do a lot of restoration work, particularly on heavier grands, as a result, I get some use out of my Chosera 600 grit. It gets used when taking a razor with no identifiable bevel and starts to get it formed, before the bevel is even set, I move on to the 1K with slurry, and work to clean.
Everything else I start on the 1K or higher. I examine with a loupe and identify where I should begin.
For the average person honing razors, a 600 has no real place.
PS
I started on the Norton set and honed until they were getting fragile thin. Good hones but not as nice as a Chosera.

Thank you, it doesn't sound like a 600 would be worth the investment for me. Not yet anyway.

I like the idea of a Chosera/Naniwa progression but what with the Washita, Trans Ark and Diamond Plate I think I have spent enough on stones for now.

Talking of the Diamond Plate, the 400 side started rough but now it is surprisingly smooth, is it supposed to be like that, I can feel the grit with a blade but it is very smooth to the touch.

Originally Posted by STF

Thank you, it doesn't sound like a 600 would be worth the investment for me. Not yet anyway.

I like the idea of a Chosera/Naniwa progression but what with the Washita, Trans Ark and Diamond Plate I think I have spent enough on stones for now.

Talking of the Diamond Plate, the 400 side started rough but now it is surprisingly smooth, is it supposed to be like that, I can feel the grit with a blade but it is very smooth to the touch.

It takes me a bit to try to figure out which side of my diamond plate is 400 and which is 1200. They more or less feel the same.

“I see (and I'm testing too this way) many reputable guys going from Sinth 1K directly to a fine/hard Jnat (& naguras/tomos of course).
So, i was guessing if isn't too much stress for the edge an 1/3/5/8/12 K synthetic pyramid (as many others do)?
Aren't these too near each other? bevel?”
Couldn't be an 1/5/8 (or 10/12) K enough to get a good polished

Great question, that does not get discussed enough. It depends on the razor condition and the stones.

All 1k stones leave 1k stria, but not all other stones are the same in terms of performance. Generally, with most quality stones you can make seemingly large grit jumps, because once you remove the deep 1k stria probably 75-90 % of the hard work is done, if you remove all the 1k stria. Do not remove all the deep 1k stria and you will fight the edge all the way.

So, if you go from 1k to a 2 or 3k and remove all the deep stria, you can then make a large jump to 8 or 12k easily.

1k to Jnat is a whole different kettle of fish and performance, because Jnat slurry is friable, starts out coarse and breaks down to very fine. Add to that, you can add slurry to be more aggressive or work it finer. Synthetic stone grit is not friable, Ik grit remains 1k grit.

A 1k, 2-3k 8 or 12k is very doable. For Maintenance one could easily do a 2or3k bevel reset and 8 or 12k. A 12k super stone can be very aggressive with slurry and pressure.

You don’t need to soak if you use a squirt bottle and plastic tray. Quick dunk and hone, add a squirt as needed.

Originally Posted by Skorpio58

Just a question:

I see (and I'm testing too this way) many reputable guys going from Sinth 1K directly to a fine/hard Jnat (& naguras/tomos of course).
So, i was guessing if isn't too much stress for the edge an 1/3/5/8/12 K synthetic pyramid (as many others do)?
Aren't these too near each other?
Couldn't be an 1/5/8 (or 10/12) K enough to get a good polished bevel?

I go 1k to Jnats..You cannot compare Synthetic stones to jnats because synthetics are about removing steel & striations where as Jnats work in a different way and each one works differently.
I have a Nakayama Hon Suita which goes from 1k bevel set to full Kasumi finish drop dead edge on a wedge within 15 laps, nearly no swarf..
Thanks

There used to be a guy on here that did a crazy almost every grit progression, 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10 and 12k, or something like that. He swore by that progression.

There is nothing wrong with the massive progression, but it just was not needed. It does not affect the edge negatively, just no need for that many stones.

Now if you are honing a razor that has been buffed or had edge correction, large chip removed, then the edge can benefit of more time on the stoned. That kind of honing is not regular maintenance honing it is repair honing and usually will chip out some or micro chip at the final stone of after a few stropping’s.

For edges that have been repaired I would use a 1,4,8 k and finish on a natural, Jnat or Ark progression and joint the edge at the end of each stone in the progression and strop the edge on Chrome Oxide on sailcloth, then rebuild the edge on the next stone.

Restored or buffed edges can be weak and tend to chip so removing a bit more edge to insure you are down to solid steel is good insurance.

Originally Posted by STF

Hi guys,

I want to talk hones and hopefully get some advice/opinions.

I have 220/1K Norton 4k/8k Norton and 12k Nanaiwa SS. I also have 400/1K Diamond Plate.

First what are the general opinions regarding the Nortons, are they highly rated or stones that nobody except new honers use?

I am considering a 600 Chosera, is it a regular start to a bevel set progression to 1K or is it a stone that's rarely going to be used?

Shaptons cost a lot more, what is the reason and are they some sort of super magical stones.

My Diamond plate was real rough on the 400 side when I got it on Saturday. I lapped my 220/1k Norton, corrected a stabilizer and actually tried honing on it and probably caused some nice chips in my edge.

The 400 has gone from really rough to really smooth, not what I would expect a 400 to feel like. Should I return it or is supposed to go like that?

Lastly, and I have asked a friend here what he thought so no disrespect intended, I am just interested in the general consensus.

When my razors start to pull a bit and need a touch up on my 12K Naniwa, is there any reason why I can't use my Trans Ark instead?

Norton used to be well respected. Then they took a nose dive in quality, I believe they moved their manuracturing to Mexico. However I have a brand new Norton 1k that recently came to be mine and it isn't bad. Seems a lot coarser than 1k to me, actually a little coarser than my 600 grit Chosera, but it cuts dreadfully fast and is a hard wearing stone, has no voids or inclusions that were common in recent decades with the brand. And without a doubt lots of guys use them. I haven't seen a new 4k or 8k so I have no personal experience with those. Keep in mind that the Nortons are rated on the ANSI scale, and most Japanese stones are on the JIS scale. There are a lot of junk stones out there but I don't regard their 1k as junk at all and probably the finer grits are okay, too.

I do think highly of the Naniwa 12k SuperStone. I actually have a full set of them from 1k to 12k. The 1k is getting pretty thin, actually, so I got a Chosera to do the heavy lifting with at that grit. The only one I don't really like is the 3k which seems to glaze very quickly and also to load up with swarf. But the 12k is a jewel and works as good as lapping film but is more confenient than film once it is lapped.

Now I do NOT like combo stones. The problem with combination stones is that they usually swell or shrink a little depending on water content. Even the non-soakers still soak up a little water. Being of different densities and textures, they naturally do not swell or shrink at the same rate. But glued together, they can't do this independantly. So the combo stone is prone to warping. The effect is usually very small but if you want to see an extreme, have a look at the 1k/6k King combo stone. I had one and it literally split apart from the unequal expansion. This probably won't happen to your Norton combo, but a more subtle problem may set in. When you lap a stone flat when it is warped one way, and then warps the other way, you are no longer flat. And vice versa. Some would say that this is nitpicling and nerdy and really insignificant thing to worry about, but it's still a thing. But you got what you got. So what I'm saying is if you soak, then lap when they have soaked. If you don't soak, then don't lap them soaked. A quick exploratory pass on the sandpaper will tell you if it is flat RIGHT NOW.

A very well burnished arkie will behave like a slightly finer stone than the 12k, as often as not. But it is really really slow. Trying to speed it up with more pressure is a bad idea. So if you genuinely like shaving off the Arkie, then hit the 12k Nanny first and then do your couple hundred or whatever laps on the ark. You will save time and still have an Arkansas finish.

Now if you use the balsa progression, you won't be able to tell the arkie honed razor from one not honed on the arkie. It will be a BALSA edge.

Yes, a diamond plate does smooth out when it is broken in properly.

Steve I know you got your Norton combo set within probably a few months to a year from the time I got mine. I have heard the same thing about Norton's being not so great at least the modern ones and I don't know exactly where the ones that you and I have lie in that whole storyline but I know what I have found is that the flattening stone should be used for flattening and not for lapping. It is fine for getting a stone to flat but if you want to get a good lapped finish get some SIC powder and a good flat plate. I use a ceramic floor tile That is dead flat. I know many of them are not but this one is. Once I started using it it was like the difference between night and day over using the flattening stone. Another thing that I have found is to not over soak them. I found that they perform best if soaked for about 5 minutes, 10 minutes tops and then taken out of the water. If you put both in the water at the same time and then pull the 220/1k stone out pull the 4k/8k out also and soak it with a spray bottle when you need it or give it a quick dip back in the water. Normally I keep a 5 gallon bucket in the tub about halfway full of water and soak them until they quit fizzing and then pull them out. Then if the swarf builds up I wash it under the faucet and if it gets dry dunk it back into the water but don't let them soak continuously. I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination but this seemed to make a difference for me. I know you have the same set and the biggest difference I found was when I quit using the flattening stone to lap them. Get some SIC powder and a fl at hard plate like a piece of granite or a ceramic tile and keep checking the flatness of it in case you get too heavy in one spot. Do that and I think you will find a world of difference. A sprinkle of SIC powder and a splash of water and lap them until you start to see the color of the stone show up in the gray of the SIC powder and then you're normally done. But to be sure rinse it off and dry it with a towel and you can pier down the stone like peering down the barrel of a gun and you can see the spots that were hit high on the SIC. They look dull and opaque. If you see smooth or shiny spots that is a spot that didn't get lapped. If it's at the very end of the stone you can always just avoid that part or you can go back to the SIC plate.
Laughing the stones this way and doing the 1,4,8 then trans or even throwing the 12k in there will get you pretty good results. Guys like you and I who are still somewhere in the learning curve are more concerned about good shavable edges than anything. I have wandered more into that great big brick of my dad's doing one stone honing and the whole Ark Fandango but I am a babe in the wilderness with all of that. If I have one that is a problem child or is beyond what I know well the aforementioned synth progression is a good go to.

Oh, one other thing, and this can be good or bad, that stone off the SIC plate will still have some SIC slurry on it. I have been toying around with this on my Dad's giant block 2 sided hone. I'll lap and leave the slurry on, hone on that diluting along the way then scrub with a brush. By this time it has burnished a bit then hone on it like that. After this you can use the diamond plate on it which will burnish it A LOT but also leave a fine slurry. Hone in that for a while, diluting as I go then was it and scrub with a brush and then use plain water and/or dish soap or glycerin or a progression of these then flip the he stone and do the same on the finish side.

I got a little carried away there but the point I was trying to make is that the SIC will leave the stone rough and beware that the slurry is there. To smooth it you can use the diamond plate for caring degrees of burnishing.

To the OP, you mention a 400/1000 diamond plate. Is it one of those with the honeycomb (hexagonal) patterning on the surface? I have heard that these should never be used for lapping. So if you used it for lapping, that may account for the resultant smoothness you describe due to its being worn out prematurely. If you have the Norton line already, no reason not to use them in my opinion, 1k > 4k > 8k. 220x I would stay away from with razors. For grunt work below this, either a fine DMT or a Beston 500 in my opinion. Off the Norton 8k, I would think that either a lot of love on the Ark stone or less on the Naniwa 12k, or the Naniwa 12k followed by a few laps on the Ark stone to calm things should get you there.

I found the following note about finish honing/polishing so long ago that I’ve forgotten the source. It bothers me that I am unable to attribute the original author of the note.

“ If you are going to be slurry honing on a very hard stone (raising slurry with a hard stone) it's counter-productive to polish the stone too much. It will only make raising a slurry much more difficult. Best is to flatten the stone with a diamond plate then raise a couple consecutive slurries with the rubbing stone and wash them away. Raise the next one and hone with it. This is for finishing only after something like 8k. If you want to try it from a little earlier in the progression you can go to 2k then raise a diamond plate slurry and hone on that, then a rubbing stone slurry and hone on that. Repeat by raising another rubbing stone slurry if necessary until you get your finished edge. On most stones the last one should be a fairly thin slurry, not too thick. Oh, and the radius you have on the corner of the stone should be sufficient. Only polish a very hard stone surface if you are going to use it without slurry. Otherwise you are better off letting the stone go to its natural state during slurry honing.”