Thread: Two Shapton 8000 Glass Options?

Ok Benny,
We are living in an age where ceramics xtals are turning motion into electricity and vice versa and you are clearly saying that a binder seperates the new generation of water stones? And of course we know that many water stone have no binder at all.
We can keep this discussion without much of the jargon because it is not needed unless we know or want to know the answer to the specific question. Not that I don't like that, I do but not here and now. You cited WIKI sources earlier, do you think Shapton is going to post proprietary information to make what cost them 100s of millions of yuen?
I think the simple question remains, are all of the xtals following some basic hexagonal silicate theme only differing in how assembled and sorted, meaning they are all the same or are they more advanced on the nano level and clearly have developed different morphs of xtals with different physical properties.
Mike

Mike I understand what you are saying.

and you are clearly saying that a binder seperates the new generation of water stones?

That´s exactly what I meant to say
(except for the tolerances in micron sizes)

are all of the xtals following some basic hexagonal silicate theme only differing in how assembled and sorted, meaning they are all the same

I would say defenitely yes

are they more advanced on the nano level and clearly have developed different morphs of xtals with different physical properties.

I would say defenitely not.
I am not goint to tell about nanotechnology, or colloidal chemistry
this would be way too time consuming.
Simple Al2O3 xtals have been used in sandpaper and sharpening stones
since the beginning of these


Of course shapton will not tell their "secrets" but
you can go and buy loose Al2O3 sharpening particles
from 3M or whoever and bind them yourself.
If you get the binder right, you will have an excellent sharpening stone.
The secrets lie in the binder not the particle itself.

There is no nanotechnology involved to produce xtals of certain shape.
This would be way out of proportion



Shapton, Naniwa... they all do great deals in putting together nice hones.
And most if not all work is done with the mixtures.
The relation of sharpening particles and binder (and maybe something that has no effect on the sharpening process but impacts the feeling)
And the sort of binder used.
All of this is extremely complicated work and takes millions to figure out


As for the non-bond pure ceramic hones,
I am not sure what they actually are.
Idk if it is possible to grow one single white corundum crystall this big.
I think spyderco hones consist of many Al2O3 crystalls
that formed a polycrystall.
Nevertheless those are excotics and would make the discussion
too complicated.

The initial question has been:
Is it possible to produce softer Corundum particles.

I would answer with defenitely no.
Monoxtals of Alumoxide will always be around 9.0 Mohs.

The second question that came up was
Is it possible to create Al2O3 crystalls of certain shape.

I would answer genrally spoken with no.
Those crystalls are being formed by evapourating a Aluminiumhydroxide solution,
like we all grew Salt-xtals by solving salt in water, adding seed crystal and let the water evaporate a bit.

Efforts have succesfully been made to make sure you will get more small particles.
But still they will be splintered and more or less oddly shaped.


But of course I have to make clear that I do not know.
I know what it takes to make these Stones theoretically
but I don´t know how they do it exactly.
If they use nanotechnology to influence the shape and size of their crystals I am wrong

benny,
You are well spoken and thank you for reminding me how Al2O3 is refined from principle ores. I am saying that Al2O3 is a starting point and these new stone have more to them. I could be wrong.
M

Originally Posted by Kingfish

benny,
You are well spoken and thank you for reminding me how Al2O3 is refined from principle ores. I am saying that Al2O3 is a starting point and these new stone have more too them. I could be wrong.
M

Mike, don't feel bad. I was wrong once myself. Kidding aside, I just was reading the latest in this thread and what comes to mind is that these hone mfgs take their business seriously. The old saw,"build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door."

Shapton already had success with the M- Series and the Professionals and developed the GlassStones. Now they have gone a step further with the gray glass variation. Naniwa has the Chosera and SuperStones. They keep pushing the envelope and that is really cool.

Benny,
Are you in this industry? If so I will say no more in hopes of rescue from technical minds in that industry. I know I should not hold my breath
M

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Mike, don't feel bad. I was wrong once myself. Kidding aside, I just was reading the latest in this thread and what comes to mind is that these hone mfgs take their business seriously. The old saw,"build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door."

Shapton already had success with the M- Series and the Professionals and developed the GlassStones. Now they have gone a step further with the gray glass variation. Naniwa has the Chosera and SuperStones. They keep pushing the envelope and that is really cool.

jimmy, married 26 years to the same woman this week. I really no how to be wrong, in that field I am expert.
Mike

Are you in this industry

Oh no, no

married 26 years to the same woman this week. I really no how to be wrong, in that field I am expert

I know exactly what you are talking about,
being a youngster I only have 4 years from tomorrow!
but still....

we all know the question:
If a tree falls and noone hears it, well did it fall then?

I found out this much more true question:
If a man talks and no woman hears it,
is he still be wrong then?

Benny,
You learned that in short order. Very prodigious.
M

I did not have time to read the entirety of this thread. I read the first 4 pages and there was a couple things I wanted to comment on.

First, I use the shapton glass series, and I love the stones. Many people have noted (and I think they were talking about the glass series not the pro) that they raise a slurry quickly. I have not found that to be the case though. They do cut EXTREMELY quickly, so often the 'slurry' type build up you are getting is a high metal shaving content and shouldn't be treated like a beneficial slurry. The microscopic metal content can cause chipping and scratches if you let it get out of control. You are essentially dragging metal shavings across your metal, which as you can imagine is not a good thing.

The scratches that people are talking about the the 16k leaving can be caused by this, but having used the 16k extensively, and having more than one of them, it is a phenomenon of the stone. IMO its a result of the positioning of a random abrasive partical or perhaps its a renegade grit size. I think the fact that its so visible is a combination of what I just said and the fact that overall the bevel is becoming more polished so any inconsistencies will start to become more visible.

The stone material that does 'release' from the stone as you sharpen does not respond like a natural stones will. Partical sizes are pretty uniform and don't break down as easily. IMO with the glass series you will achieve much better results by frequent cleaning and rewetting as you go along. I can pretty much guarantee it. That's just how this stone behaves. Everyone has their personal preference, this won't be everyone's cup of tea, but the stone is awesome at what it does IMO. I think a problem a lot of people could run into is that if you are accustomed to a different type of stone, you may not be used to the speed with which the these cut, so you could spend too much time on the stone. Combine that with the idea that the slurry from these stones is beneficial, like from a nakayama for example, and you could be causing more harm than good.