Thread: Hone confusion

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

Sounds like you're doing the right thing, then, in using wet/dry. That said, some synths will clog up with loose silicon carbide powder on glass, but I've never experienced this with the paper. Kings, I don't think I would lap much higher than ~P320.

I have been using higher grits, but will lap again with something less than a P320 just to be sure. For a touch-up, I am just using the 1k stone.

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

How long are you soaking the 4k and 6k (and 10k) Kings? Unlike the red "bevel-setters" they may not need much of a soak and may be breaking down if they've been soaked too long.

I don't soak for long, a minute or two seems to be all they need. The red 1k doesn't seem to need much longer.

There is also the chance that the 6k & 10k are indeed polishing very well & revealing scratches from earlier stones.

If the shave from your 4k vs 10k is no different there is something wrong. Most likely at bevel set but maybe also not enough time on 6k -10 k. Hard to say without seeing the razor.

Originally Posted by Montgomery

For a touch-up, I am just using the 1k stone.

Assuming that the blade was shaving well before needing a touch-up, all that should be needed is a return to the finest stone or pasted strop you used as part of the sequence, 10k or the pasted strop in this instance.

And since you mentioned a 4k, slurries, and a pasted strop at the start, I would suggest just using the 1k and the 6k Kings for now to simplify things. No slurries on the synths. Soak the 1k until it's saturated and the 6k for a minute or two as mentioned. Lap them fresh on P320, followed by re-lapping the 1k as often as needed to keep the surface fresh (some swarf build-up is okay there, but not an overloaded build-up), and the same thing for the 6k but to a lesser extent. (You mentioned a slurry stone; some off these, the small synth stones included with larger synth stones themselves, can be used to remove swarf from the surface as it accumulates, rather than lapping, provided that the resulting slurry is rinsed off.) Try to get the best edge you can off the 6k, then move on to straight leather and shave. Once you have achieved a decent edge with this, introduce either the 10k or the pasted strop, followed by plain leather, to see how the edge benefits from this.

What pasted strop are you using? Off 6k, I would suggest the Thiers-Issard diamond-alox crayon on a suede paddle, or the red Solingen crayon paste on a lightly sanded, vegetable-tanned hanging strop or slightly slackened loom strop. Once this is down, it can be followed by the black Solingen crayon used in the same way; or, if your are introducing the 10k (again, no slurry) after the 6k, just the black paste if needed.

How are you testing? I'd suggest shaving with edges off of each stone.

My final bevel set test is HHT off a Shapton 4k Glass HR or a 5k Pro, and those edges test pretty well if I've done my job, so trying to discern the difference between 4k and 8k may not be as easy as you might think at least using HHT.

Maybe the binders are different? I know a Shapton Pro 320 isn't the same as the 2k/5k/8k. Binders can affect the polish whether synth or natural. We assume King and Ice Bear are the same, but maybe they aren't. Is the performance/polish different between the King branded stones and the Ice Bears?

Cheers, Steve

Originally Posted by Montgomery

I have been using higher grits, but will lap again with something less than a P320 just to be sure. For a touch-up, I am just using the 1k stone.

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

Assuming that the blade was shaving well before needing a touch-up, all that should be needed is a return to the finest stone or pasted strop you used as part of the sequence, 10k or the pasted strop in this instance.

Thanks for the input! We were talking about lapping there, and about touching up the higher stone, in the sense of levelling and cleaning the stone. Not talking about about touching up a razor.

To clarify, this is not a post about having trouble getting a good edge. I'm getting an edge I am very pleased with off the 4k stone. I'm spending plenty of time on the 4k, first with a slurry, then without, and then by allowing some swarf to build up on the surface of the stone, and I'm getting a mirror-like edge. What I'm curious about is that I can't improve this edge appreciably on my higher stones, and I'm wondering why. In particular, I can't replicate the mirror-like polish I'm getting on the 4k on the higher stones.

I'm going to try Christian1's suggestion of not using slurry on the higher stones and see how we go.

Originally Posted by Montgomery

In particular, I can't replicate the mirror-like polish I'm getting on the 4k on the higher stones.

I'm going to try Christian1's suggestion of not using slurry on the higher stones and see how we go.

Good idea. The slurry stones that come with the King 8k tend to crumble easily & can degrade an edge initially. May be the culprit if you have one of these.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Good idea. The slurry stones that come with the King 8k tend to crumble easily & can degrade an edge initially. May be the culprit if you have one of these.

The stone and nagura I have are these: https://www.axminster.co.uk/ice-bear...10-000g-384033

It is a slightly different nagura, I read somewhere on Axminster that they claim it is 12,000 grit. But I feel it is coarser. When I lap the 10000 and 6000 against each other, the slurry seems much finer than that created with the slurry stone.

I think any stone that comes with a synthetic is just for cleaning & resurfacing. 12k for such a stone makes no sense

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I think any stone that comes with a synthetic is just for cleaning & resurfacing. 12k for such a stone makes no sense

I think on this page the same stone is advertised, and the nagura stone is listed as 12,000 grit: Ice Bear 10000 Grit Japanese Waterstone, 12000 Grit Nagura Japanese Waterstones - World of Survival

Elsewhere they say that this nagura can also be used as a hone in its own right: Ice Bear Nagura Stone 12000 Grit Nagura Stones - World of Survival

I suppose the only sense it makes is that you wouldn't want to use stone with too low a grit to create a slurry, right?

Steve, thanks for weighing in!

Originally Posted by Steve56

How are you testing?

Originally Posted by Montgomery

... as an experiment, I stropped a razor after the 4k, tested it, and then went back and took it through the 6k and 10k, stropped and tested it again. No appreciable difference. As a further experiment, I took a scrap razor which was warped and has a very wide bevel on one side. I honed it without tape on the 10k, then put two layers of tape on the spine, and created a secondary bevel on the 4k with slurry, then polished the edge on the clean 4k. The idea was to get two bevels side-by-side, from the different stones, to compare them definitively. After seeing the two side-by-side, the 4k certainly does polish better than the 10k.

By testing the razor, I'm talking about shaving with it. If you can suggest any other tests, I'd be glad to give them a try.

Originally Posted by Steve56

We assume King and Ice Bear are the same, but maybe they aren't. Is the performance/polish different between the King branded stones and the Ice Bears?

250/1000 and 1000/4000 are both 'King - Ice Bear' branded, the 6k is 'King', and the 10,000 are is 'Ice Bear'. I think the 6k stone may be a little different, it cuts more slowly. I'm not sure our investigations will yield much if we go down this track.