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Thread: Hone confusion

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    Senior Member Brontosaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montgomery View Post
    Thanks for the input! We were talking about lapping there, and about touching up the higher stone, in the sense of levelling and cleaning the stone. Not talking about about touching up a razor.

    To clarify, this is not a post about having trouble getting a good edge. I'm getting an edge I am very pleased with off the 4k stone. I'm spending plenty of time on the 4k, first with a slurry, then without, and then by allowing some swarf to build up on the surface of the stone, and I'm getting a mirror-like edge. What I'm curious about is that I can't improve this edge appreciably on my higher stones, and I'm wondering why. In particular, I can't replicate the mirror-like polish I'm getting on the 4k on the higher stones.

    I'm going to try Christian1's suggestion of not using slurry on the higher stones and see how we go.
    Not that there is only one way to hone correctly, but I've understood that slurrying synth water-stones or rubbing them together is generally not recommended. I only suggest trying 1k to 6k followed by a pasted strop as there seem to be a number of outside variables, if not redundancies, as introduced in your progression given at the start; and this would be a way to simplify things. I agree with the remarks that a synth nagura should only be used to clean the surface of the stone. I've got an Ice Bear nagura that works quite well in this regard with the 8k side of a 1.2k/8k King combo.

    But I will bow out of this discussion now, so as to avoid further confusion.
    Last edited by Brontosaurus; 07-09-2018 at 09:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brontosaurus View Post
    Not that there is only one way to hone correctly, but I've understood that slurrying synth water-stones or rubbing them together is generally not recommended. I only suggest trying 1k to 6k followed by a pasted strop as there seem to be a number of outside variables, if not redundancies, as introduced in your progression given at the start; and this would be a way to simplify things. I agree with the remarks that a synth nagura should only be used to clean the surface of the stone. I've got an Ice Bear nagura that works quite well in this regard with the 8k side of a 1.2k/8k King combo.
    Thanks again! I agree that there seem to be redundancies... everything after the 4k! May I ask, what is the logic of missing the 4k and the 10k? What will that establish? Very willing to give it a try!

    As to slurrying the stones, the 10k comes from the manufacturer with the slurry stone; I just checked the manufacturers instructions, and they say the stone should be used to clean the stone. No mention of slurry. Your suggestion, along with the earlier suggestion to not use a slurry stone after 4k seems a good one, I will try that.

    I think that maybe the idea that is starting to form is that there are an awful lot more variables than just the grit of the stone. In theory, the fineness of the honing depends on not the grit size, but the contact between the stone and the steel. I think we see this with the older hones, I understand that barbers often honed razors on hones much coarser than those used by the members on this forum, and many got good results. I guess that was down to technique. Grit size is only the absolute determinant when everything else remains constant; we hear of the '1k shave' in these discussions, and I guess that 1k and a lot of technique is perhaps worth more than a higher grit and low skill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montgomery View Post
    Thanks again!I think that maybe the idea that is starting to form is that there are an awful lot more variables than just the grit of the stone. In theory, the fineness of the honing depends on not the grit size, but the contact between the stone and the steel. I think we see this with the older hones, I understand that barbers often honed razors on hones much coarser than those used by the members on this forum, and many got good results.
    I think that the grit shape is important. Coticule garnets are pretty well acknowledged by microscopy to be 4-8k. However, unlike many quartz abrasive stones, the garnets are almost round.

    Barber hones have been postulated to be most effective after wearing in/burnishing with hard steel, because the coarse 'plates' of abrasive are flattened on the surface and perform as a considerably finer grit than they really are. That's why lapping and refreshing a traditional barbers hone sometimes doesn't work very well, fresh, coarse grit is exposed and has to be worn in for better performance.

    Cheers, Steve
    Last edited by Steve56; 07-09-2018 at 10:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montgomery View Post
    I think on this page the same stone is advertised, and the nagura stone is listed as 12,000 grit: Ice Bear 10000 Grit Japanese Waterstone, 12000 Grit Nagura Japanese Waterstones - World of Survival

    Elsewhere they say that this nagura can also be used as a hone in its own right: Ice Bear Nagura Stone 12000 Grit Nagura Stones - World of Survival

    I suppose the only sense it makes is that you wouldn't want to use stone with too low a grit to create a slurry, right?
    They also say it can be used to flatten stones... I'd like to hear from someone who uses a 12k stone for flattening out high spots. That just doesn't gel with me.

    The other thing I mentioned is still possible . If you use too much pressure you will crumble the nagura causing random large particles in your slurry.

    Using a low grit to flatten the nagura shouldn't be an issue but as I said pressure is always an issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by onimaru55 View Post
    Good idea. The slurry stones that come with the King 8k tend to crumble easily & can degrade an edge initially. May be the culprit if you have one of these.
    Howdy Oz,

    I actually like these things though I do not use them for honing above 4k except just for fun. They are, as best I can tell, a section of a King 8000 Gold hone, which usually comes on a stand, but of course I could be wrong.

    If I recast your comment, I'd say 'this thing has the consistency of stale cookie dough, so if you don't want crumblies from the edges and corners in your slurry, keep ALL those nagura edges and corners rounded and smoothed. Just like Iwasaki-San said.'

    Cheers, Steve
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    Senior Member Brontosaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montgomery View Post
    Thanks again! I agree that there seem to be redundancies... everything after the 4k! May I ask, what is the logic of missing the 4k and the 10k? What will that establish? Very willing to give it a try!
    The basic logic of skipping the 4k in moving to the 6k is that 4k to 6k are very close, close enough to the point where they could be considered redundant--or to be used interchangeably according to a Canadian national bureau of standards. A straight 1k to 6k progression is doable; and if you are liking the edge off 4k, how much more so off 6k then. And I'm still curious as to what stopping paste you are using at the end.

    Again, there are a lot of variables as introduced. You mention really enjoying the edge off 4k, which is not the norm. Perhaps through using a slurry or rubbing the stones together, which again is not advised with synths, the 4k may have become loaded with 6k or 10 grit, making it act at a seemingly more refined level. Same outcome perhaps if excessive swarf build-up has accumulated.

    So to know how the hones work in themselves, they need to be cleaned off for starters. Refresh the surface by lapping and use straight water when honing. Nothing wrong with using a straight 1k > 4k > 6k > 10k King/Ice Bear/Sun King progression in this way. But again the 4k and 6k risk to introduce redundancy as they are close. If one were to be starting out, it might be easier to use a two-step progression; and here I would suggest 1k > 6k if one is starting from the ground up. But if one were only doing touch-ups, then one could get by with the 10k, dipping down to either the 6k or the 4k on occasion as needed.

    Not knowing what stropping paste you're using, I can only repeat that a 1k > 6k progression followed by either red Solingen paste on a sanded vegetable-tanned hanging strop or the Thiers-Issard alox-diamond crayon on a suede paddle can leave a very nice edge. And not having used or seen a 10k King/Ice Bear, I can only presume that it too would work in lieu of these particular pastes, and any of these should leave a nice enough shaving edge for starters, no further work being needed apart from plain leather stropping.

    Nothing wrong with re-writing things though. If the 4k is giving you an amazing edge and you know what steps to take to repeat it again and again, that's great. And maybe rubbing a 4k synth with a 10k synth turns the former into a 7k synth on the surface for a short while. But one is still needing the 10k to do this, and the downside would be that the 10k is turning into a 7k synth as well.
    Last edited by Brontosaurus; 07-09-2018 at 10:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brontosaurus View Post
    Not knowing what stropping paste you're using, I can only repeat that a 1k > 6k progression followed by either red Solingen paste on a sanded vegetable-tanned hanging strop or the Thiers-Issard alox-diamond crayon on a suede paddle can leave a very nice edge.
    Thanks for the detailed reply. Very late here, so a quick response to your question on the paste. Nothing as grand as the ones you mention, a standard green wax polishing compound on cardboard. Not specifically for razors. I tried this as an inexpensive way to experiment with something beyond the stones, and it seems to work well.

    I will mull over the rest of your response!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve56 View Post
    Howdy Oz,

    I actually like these things though I do not use them for honing above 4k except just for fun. They are, as best I can tell, a section of a King 8000 Gold hone, which usually comes on a stand, but of course I could be wrong.

    If I recast your comment, I'd say 'this thing has the consistency of stale cookie dough, so if you don't want crumblies from the edges and corners in your slurry, keep ALL those nagura edges and corners rounded and smoothed. Just like Iwasaki-San said.'

    Cheers, Steve
    Steve, the trouble with the King nagura is that they become more crumbly as they age if used infrequently but even new ones require a very light touch. I can't see them as being the same as the 8k King as it is nowhere near as brittle as these little buggers.

    Chamfering all sides is advisable for any hone but it will not solve the brittleness.

    No idea of the consistency of these white Ice Bear nagura so I'll leave that to the forum.



    Quote Originally Posted by Brontosaurus View Post
    The basic logic of skipping the 4k in moving to the 6k is that 4k to 6k are very close, close enough to the point where they could be considered redundant--or to be used interchangeably according to a Canadian national bureau of standards. A straight 1k to 6k progression is doable; and if you are liking the edge off 4k, how much more so off 6k then. And I'm still curious as to what stopping paste you are using at the end.
    Fair point on the redundancy.
    In the years I used Kings I chose to skip the 6k as the 4k was a quicker transition from 1k & easily moved to a King 8k.
    I did a lot of restorations back then but for regular honing I guess the 6k would work .
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    Senior Member Brontosaurus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onimaru55 View Post
    Fair point on the redundancy.
    In the years I used Kings I chose to skip the 6k as the 4k was a quicker transition from 1k & easily moved to a King 8k.
    I did a lot of restorations back then but for regular honing I guess the 6k would work .
    Yes, no need for a 6k King in a 1k > 4k > 8k King progression. It's either 1k > 6k or 1k > 4k > 8k. My take is that a two-step progression is good for beginners, as the resultant effects are more obvious than the transition from 4k to 8k; and ending with 6k for starters allows one to really concentrate on the technique that leads to the best possible edge off that hone. Afterwards, one can use a pasted strop as mentioned to fill the office of an 8k, or a 10k in this case, which again has an advantage in starting out as it emphasizes the importance of good stropping technique. But I'm also thinking that 1k > 4k > 10k or 1k > 6k > 10k in the OP's present collection, cleaned up and used straight with water, would do the job quite well. Again, for starters, I would suggest 1k > 6k, then plain stropping off this until the best edge is obtainable, followed by a later introduction of the 10k. If 1k > 4k used clean with water is really the way according to his taste in the end, then fine, shave with this until the best the possible edge is reached before introducing the 10k, leaving out the 6k.
    Last edited by Brontosaurus; 07-10-2018 at 03:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brontosaurus View Post
    Yes, no need for a 6k King in a 1k > 4k > 8k King progression. It's either 1k > 6k or 1k > 4k > 8k. My take is that a two-step progression is good for beginners, as the resultant effects are more obvious than the transition from 4k to 8k; and ending with 6k for starters allows one to really concentrate on the technique that leads to the best possible edge off that hone. Afterwards, one can use a pasted strop as mentioned to fill the office of an 8k, or a 10k in this case, which again has an advantage in starting out as it emphasizes the importance of good stropping technique. But I'm also thinking that 1k > 4k > 10k or 1k > 6k > 10k in the OP's present collection, cleaned up and used straight with water, would do the job quite well. Again, for starters, I would suggest 1k > 6k, then plain stropping off this until the best edge is obtainable, followed by a later introduction of the 10k. If 1k > 4k used clean with water is really the way according to his taste in the end, then fine, shave with this until the best the possible edge is reached before introducing the 10k, leaving out the 6k.
    I'm starting to get the thinking here. In particular, the idea of simplifying the progression at least initially. One of the trickiest things is noting which stone did what, hence my 'double bevel' test, which actually worked quite well . I'll be a bit busy the next ten days or so, but after that, I will give these approaches a try and will report back.

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