Thread: Hone confusion

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

I only suggest trying 1k to 6k followed by a pasted strop as there seem to be a number of outside variables.

I couldn't wait, and decided to have a go using this approach. To cut a long story short, I got an extremely nice edge of the 1k, 6k, and strops, maybe the best edge I have ever got, although that is a record I'm breaking regularly at the moment. But... it was a really long story. It took forever to get the 1k scratches out, I stopped counting after around 1000 laps, and I wasn't halfway done. The 6k is really slow, I was wishing I was on my 4k all the time.

Anyway, for now, I know roughly what 1k-6k-strops looks like. What would be the next thing to try, 1k-4k-10k-strops, and see how that compares?

Originally Posted by Montgomery

But... it was a really long story. It took forever to get the 1k scratches out, I stopped counting after around 1000 laps, and I wasn't halfway done. The 6k is really slow, I was wishing I was on my 4k all the time.

Hate to say I toldja so

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Hate to say I toldja so

Still a worthwhile exercise. Very interesting to see what can be done with a few hours on the 6k But this will not become the regular routine. In the absence of further suggestions, next step is to try (1k)-4k-10k-strops and see how that looks. I got what I thought was a damn good edge off the 6k, so let's see. This was all about figuring out what was going on in the progression, and so far, I have learned how to get a good edge off 1k-6k-strops (and also learned how damn long it took!). The whole idea was to examine my feeling that not much was improving after the 4k, so lets see.

Just something to check.
If that is literally a few hours on any King stone. I would suggest that stone may be "dishing" ie concaving its surface as you hone.
Keep it lapped flat.

I used to restore a lot of eBay razors with Kings & found wedges to be the biggest culprit for dishing the stones.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Just something to check.
If that is literally a few hours on any King stone. I would suggest that stone may be "dishing" ie concaving its surface as you hone.
Keep it lapped flat.

I used to restore a lot of eBay razors with Kings & found wedges to be the biggest culprit for dishing the stones.

It was a long time. Maybe not a couple of hours on the 6k, but over an hour. I will watch for the dishing issue, thanks.

I've not tried the exact King 1k > 6k progression with razors, but others have. I've done it with a Suehiro 1k/6k combo stone. I don't remember the 6k there being overly long, but at the time, I was used to Arkansas stones, so the synth seemed much faster in comparison. I've also tried a King 1.2k > 8k combo with razors and don't remember it being exceptionally long. There, the synth Ice Bear nagura worked really well to clean swarf from the 8k side, which was rinsed off before honing again. Perhaps the perceived slowness was due to swarf accumulation? Sometimes one has to refresh the surface to restore cutting action.

To follow-up on your question, if the 1k > 6k progression has been your best yet, then yes, I would definitely try a 1k > 4k > 10k progression next. Again used clean, no slurries or extended swarf build-up.

Learning the stone & the light pressure needed always speeds up the process.
IME the Kings all got faster after years of use & lottsa practice. Nonetheless they are a relatively slow, soft stone perfectly suited to JP knives where a convex bevel is desired.

Originally Posted by Brontosaurus

To follow-up on your question, if the 1k > 6k progression has been your best yet, then yes, I would definitely try a 1k > 4k > 10k progression next. Again used clean, no slurries or extended swarf build-up.

So, here is the update. I tried the 1k - 4k - 10k progression, and started to notice some grittiness in the 10k stone. I checked the surface of the stone with the loupe, and there appeared to be some silvery particles embedded in the surface of the stone. Aha! I thought, somehow some particles of metal have become embedded in the surface of the stone which are causing the problem. So, I tried digging them out with a needle, not very successfully, they seemed to disappear. Next idea was to try lapping thoroughly with emery paper, to see if I could remove the particles. To this end, I made a careful note of the locations of some of these dark particles, to see if the lapping somehow drove them into the surface of the stone, or if the lapping removed them. Lapping did remove them, but others appeared. I then had a close look at these marks or particles which appeared, and discovered that they were a dark green colour. Next step was to hone again on the stone and see what happened. The stone again became a little gritty, and after honing, I looked again at the surface of the stone with the loupe, and the dark particles had acquired a metallic sheen.

My current explanation is as follows:

i) The fact that only this stone is affected points towards a problem with this stone itself, as this does not happen with my other stones, which are treated the same way.

ii) The particles are not foreign bodies, they are in the matrix of the stone. This is demonstrated by the ease of removing them by lapping, and the fact that new ones also appear when material is removed from the surface of the stone by lapping.

iii) The reason that the stones feel gritty at times is that these elements in the fabric of the stone are slightly harder than the rest of the stone. This means that they become slightly more prominent after a little wear from honing on the stone, which leads to the gritty feeling.

iv) The reason that the particles appear metallic after using the stone is similar; as the slightly harder particles become more prominent with use, swarf accumulates on those particles first, giving the metallic appearance.

One reasonable explanation would be that somehow the abrasives were not properly mixed with the binder in this stone. The anomalies in the stone are not completely solid, they are just clumps which are a little harder than the rest of the stone. Also, the stone is greenish-yellow, and the anomalies are dark green; if dark green abrasives were mixed with a light binder, greenish-yellow might result.

So, currently, I feel that this stone has a problem. This picture shows one of the anomalies in the stone; the dark spot is about 0.8mm across, and is one I observed closely before and after lapping, and after honing with the stone. It is green after lapping, getting silvery or metallic after using the stone:



Current plan is to use a 1k - 4k - 6k progression, as the 4k is noticeably faster than the 6k, and the 6k seems to be touch finer than the 4k. The 10k will be retired for now, and the plan anyway was to buy a natural finishing stone in the coming months, so that may be brought forward a little.

congrats on finding the solution. Whatever natural you get I am sure will most likely be fine going from 6k to the natural. GL

Originally Posted by Christian1

congrats on finding the solution. Whatever natural you get I am sure will most likely be fine going from 6k to the natural. GL

Yes! Anyway, it is all a process of improvement, step by step. I'm wondering if I can get my money back on the King 10k now...