You call that stropping the hell out of it Bob. Thats a standard for me. Ha. Now 400 to 500, were talking stroppin! Thanks for the replys guys. I will try some stropping olimpics and less on the 12k. Seporately of course and see what i get. And TC, your right that i havent spent enough time on the 20k yet. I was just thinking ahead. I do like a keen edge!