Thread: Dovo’s honing method

I think we can easily find common ground in the fact we all enjoy a well produced quality razor. As I see it, a razor provided with a straight edge or a slight smile; certainly not with a frown.
And one that is truly shave ready without functional or practical hindrances created by the manufacturer.

Aside from a well produced razor that is perfectly functional, straight razor shaving is highly subjective. Even the finisher preference varies A LOT between folks and that's something that can easily be worked out by folks themselves. Fundamental problems with the razor can't.

The fact there has been many reports on fundamental issues with modernly produced razors in Solingen is what bothers people, and rightfully so, folks expect better from a town called Solingen and also from a name like Dovo.
As a while ago when I started shaving everybody was recommending entry level Dovo razors.

It sounds idealistic, but often times fundamental perfection gets lost in modern day times due to a variety of reasons; which is eventually a sad thing.
We are no doubt a nostalgic bunch that admire the art of straight razors, etc. And since we're all on a forum, we're a bit of perfectionists as well, maybe.

I hone a lot of new Dovo and TI razors, the issue is not that they are not precisely ground, they can be repaired easily, properly honed and made to shave well.

The issue is that Dovo and a few trolls claim that they are “Shave Ready”, and they are not. If a new shaver were to receive the razor that Glenn posted photos of, he would be sorely disappointed and likely never learn to shave with that razor.

I once read an article about the problem with cheap, poorly made golf clubs. And that someone trying to learn to play golf with poorly made clubs will just give up on the sport and never learn the difference a quality set of clubs can make.

That Dovo claims their razors are “Shave Ready” hurts your industry more than the imperfect grinding. With hand tools, chisels, plane blades and knives, everyone understands that the end user must hone the tool prior to use, with possibly one or two exceptions, (and you pay for that). There is no expectation of a user ready tool. And every woodworking school first teaches tool preparation and honing before they are taught how to use the tools.

The solution is not high dollar, Precision CNC, in-process laser measuring manufacturing, but their claims. Your industry’s ladder is on the wrong wall and the solution is simple, stop claiming the razors are shave ready, if they are not, or teach your people how to hone.

Clearly the “Honers” at Dovo are not shaving with those razors and the master grinders that do shave with these razors, are not honing the razors.

Originally Posted by razorfranken81

BobH you are not compelled to read anything, and I do not know how you would feel if you were a working professional in any capacity for twenty years and were told how wrong you were on an objective data point about the actual production to which your profession is devoted by self taught experts in an internet forum who lack the formal training required for your profession like any, but hopefully this scenario will come for you one day. If technical writing from a mechanical engineering standpoint is too verbose, I am sorry, it does take much longer to write a short letter than a long one in a hurry.

Someone had asked how much is the concavity upon the cutting edge itself at the apothem of the arc cut in to the bevel form, while it varies from grinder to grinder and model to model I can state it is likely, today, less than .002mm. But that is not the complete story; you have ignored meaningful changes to the reduction of the edge radius and effective cutting angle. Instead of thinking about the small width of the bevel form as an expression of the razor whole, consider a common standard for today as expressed across a typical 5/8" Solingen full hollow ground blank. Between the spine and the terminus of the cutting edge on such a razor, the abrasive will extend .032mm closer to the center of the metal than with any flat object by today's meager standard for wheel forming [and with a 20cm wheel common in 1900 it will extend .644mm closer!] The abrasive must then return to that same furthest point from the spine upon the metal, and in so doing, it will encounter the cutting edge profile near to but spineward of the cutting edge terminus. This is not an area that is fixed in position, use your thumb nail and draw your blade edge toward the nail, what occurs? The blade will flex and return to position if properly ground and tempered. And thus what occurs is that the final portion of the cutting edge furthest from the spine is gently extruded away from the spine during the sharpening. Only by using a wheel (or arc chord shaped hone) can you design the curvature of the abrasive to take advantage of the unique flexibility (in the area where the cutting edge is <.2mm) of the steel used for razor production.

You may not be noticing the difference for forty years in these two examples, but that does not mean the factory razor did not have a length advantage. It did, and when it was corrected by your rehoning, your new cutting edge terminus must take place at the position at the prior concave edge's apothem, so immediately you have discarded useful metal. If you had done everything you have done for the forty years but only changing the whetstone geometry, you would have retained the length and added your higher refinement than financially possible in a professional setting today for an open razor to be produced en masse and sold in retail markets where retailers, shipping companies, brokerage houses, and steel forges must all receive a portion of revenue.

Dear Friend: This is making it worse for you and what you are promoting, in fact you sound just like Jarrod with his junk science. same inaccurate math pulled from nether regions, in fact your writing style is exactly the same....

Yes your doing it wrong, and you should know better, don't try and pee and tell everyone it is raining

Your factory edges are not up to a standard that was achieved for 100's of years on millions of razors it is that simple...

I for one appreciate your Honing ineptitude it makes me beer money

I am sure there are Vendors that do not, lets be real here

Your ineptitude is what is killing the SR market again, the worst thing that can happen is a new shaver gets your junk science honed edge, and NEVER returns to SR shaving, another person that thinks we are all lying about the great shaves we get because you can't learn to hone and refuse to admit it..

Try that somewhere else, you ain't doing well so far on the 3 biggest SR shaving forums peddling that crap

Damn Marty I guess we were both typing at the same time

The idea was interesting at first. But theres always a latest and greatest. I think if you learn to use a convex stone(i never did) you can produce a nice edge. You can produce a nice edge with flat stones. If all we had were round cylindrical stones we would learn on those and produce a nice edge. Its a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. And for anyone to say theyre smart and everyone else is ignorant is stupid. Now the fake account pretending to be from germany? In the words of my 46th favorite president.... Cmon man! LOL

Yall all know that I don't claim to be an expert in this in any way. But what it seems like razorfranken81 is saying is that Soligen razors have always been ground and honed on a concave stone to make a convex edge. But also that the masters of the craft have all retired and are not producing the quality that they did in the glory days. It kinda seems like the argument is the level of quality degradation.

There is a small debate about the edge shape, and I certainly don't know the science of the flat, concave, and convex bevels. But I would think that with the microns we are dealing with, a fine shaving edge (at least for 99% of us) can be produced flat, concave, and convex. So here again, it seems to come back to whether or not the edge is shave ready regardless of shape. If I pulled out my first razor out of the box and it tugged, pulled, and hurt I would have thought "I guess that's why they don't use these any more" and had a fancy letter opener and a Mach III razor or stuck with the beard.

Originally Posted by planeden

Yall all know that I don't claim to be an expert in this in any way. But what it seems like razorfranken81 is saying is that Soligen razors have always been ground and honed on a concave stone to make a convex edge. But also that the masters of the craft have all retired and are not producing the quality that they did in the glory days. It kinda seems like the argument is the level of quality degradation.

There is a small debate about the edge shape, and I certainly don't know the science of the flat, concave, and convex bevels. But I would think that with the microns we are dealing with, a fine shaving edge (at least for 99% of us) can be produced flat, concave, and convex. So here again, it seems to come back to whether or not the edge is shave ready regardless of shape. If I pulled out my first razor out of the box and it tugged, pulled, and hurt I would have thought "I guess that's why they don't use these any more" and had a fancy letter opener and a Mach III razor or stuck with the beard.

Exactly reversed

and lets not forget the commercial sales aspect that you have to buy the Concave Plate to make the Convex hone to create the Concave edge that has never been shown to even happen or that is desirable

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Exactly reversed

and lets not forget the commercial sales aspect that you have to buy the Concave Plate to make the Convex hone to create the Concave edge that has never been shown to even happen or that is desirable

See, I clearly don't know how concave and convex is defined. After reading so many of these I am not entirely sure there is agreement.



I totally understand the commercial aspect of the plates/stones/etc. Which is why I find it interesting, but for my face will use flatish stones that start to dip in the middle with use until I can't get a comfy edge and flatten it again.

Originally Posted by planeden

Yall all know that I don't claim to be an expert in this in any way. But what it seems like razorfranken81 is saying is that Soligen razors have always been ground and honed on a concave stone to make a convex edge. But also that the masters of the craft have all retired and are not producing the quality that they did in the glory days. It kinda seems like the argument is the level of quality degradation.

There is a small debate about the edge shape, and I certainly don't know the science of the flat, concave, and convex bevels. But I would think that with the microns we are dealing with, a fine shaving edge (at least for 99% of us) can be produced flat, concave, and convex. So here again, it seems to come back to whether or not the edge is shave ready regardless of shape. If I pulled out my first razor out of the box and it tugged, pulled, and hurt I would have thought "I guess that's why they don't use these any more" and had a fancy letter opener and a Mach III razor or stuck with the beard.

Someone on another forum measured the thinness difference behind the blade. It was 1/5000th of an inch. About the size of a 10k grit scratch pattern. That doesn't sound like anything meaningful.

Originally Posted by planeden

See, I clearly don't know how concave and convex is defined. After reading so many of these I am not entirely sure there is agreement.

.

I am not sure how to answer this as I get the feeling your kidding right ???