Thread: Rolling X - I think I figured something out

You need to find a technique that works for you. I do not subscribe to the hand holding stone method. I hone with the stone in a Steelex rubber stone holder on a bench in a plastic food tray.

I have taught a number of guys to hone in person, hands on and almost all of them do not use enough pressure. Which is which is why most new guys have trouble setting a bevel.

For years guys said, “Weight of the Blade”. But you cannot set a bevel or remove 1k stria with weight of the blade. Yea, you finish with weight of the blade, but not hone the whole blade that way.

Start with pressure, if you tape the spine, nothing bad will happen if you check your progress periodically, Ink the bevel. Once you are honing to the edge from heel to toe, you probably have set the bevel. Look at it, straight down on the edge, any shiny spots are where the bevels are not meeting. Reink and do a few more laps.

The worst that could happen is the edge is ragged, joint the edge smooth and flat and do a few rolling X laps with light pressures to get the bevels to meet again, 10-20 laps should do it.

Then remove the 1k stria with the next stone, start with a little slurry and some pressure, circles remove metal fast. Do sets of 20, one or two sets should remove most if not all 1k slurry, then half laps or X strokes, start with pressure and lighten the pressure as the bevels and edge refine.

You will need less and less pressure the finer the stria on the bevels and straighter the edge becomes. If the edge is ragged, joint and reset.
I hone with all my stones on the Steelex, even small stones, I have honed on small Jnats, Nagura really, and small 3-inch Arks, Set them on top of another stone with some rubber drawer liner between them.

So, just find what works for you, try different things. There is no one way or right way. It is what works for you.

Just use tape and you will not cause damage. If the tape feels squishy, replace it, you probably have burned through it. I use Kapton over electrical tape, it last longer and is smoother. An additional layer on your finish stone makes a nice micro bevel.

I have tried hand holding, it does not work for me. I see it as adding another variable. Try it and see if it works for you.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

You need to find a technique that works for you.

So, just find what works for you, try different things. There is no one way or right way. It is what works for you.

I have tried hand holding, it does not work for me. I see it as adding another variable. Try it and see if it works for you.

These are true statements.
And I'm the opposite, I despise using my stones stationary, I prefer only to hone out of my hand.
And I have a couple of natural stones that are so small and little that I'm only able to use them by holding or rather by supporting.

It's a process you need to figure out for yourself.
Once you do, it's more of a muscle memory thing rather than a conscience effort.

Once you have it down, it's not hard, at all. But until you do, it can be very frustrating.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

To hone a toe, you will need to lift the heel. On a rounded toe you may need to lift the heel quite a bit to hone around the curve.

Muted spike points are another issue. The proper way to repair a muted spike, (it is a repair, this is not Garden-Variety Honing) is to hone the end of the razor, perpendicular to the edge and spine, until you remove enough material that you have a sharp corner at the toe.

It is like repairing a broken tip on a knife, to repair a broken knife tip, you grind the spine until the spine meets the edge. If you grind the edge to meet the spine, you will alter the blade profile. You see this all the time where people have ground the edge tip to meet the spine of a pocketknife and now the blade will not close fully and the tip stick up, very dangerous to carry in a pocket.

If you are repairing a muted tip, do it on a Diamond plate, if you grind on a grinder or belt sander you will probably burn the tip, the metal is very thin and will heat up very quickly and now you must grind even more.

If you just hone a muted tip from the edge, you will just make a larger rounded tip, we see a lot of these botched tip repairs.

So, if you mute, just one lite stroke on a fine stone is enough to do the job, you never know when you may want to reverse the mute and use the tip. Spike points are especially useful to shave with.

Stone in hand honing?
I've watched guys do this and my thought is I do not need any more stitches in my hand.

I always cringe when someone recommends pressure. Mostly because I like very hollow blades. If you are using enough pressure to deflect the edge, and on a proper hollow this takes very little, you have defeated the spine being an angle guide.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

I always cringe when someone recommends pressure. Mostly because I like very hollow blades. If you are using enough pressure to deflect the edge, and on a proper hollow this takes very little, you have defeated the spine being an angle guide.

Pressure.......... I have gone from each extreme.

I would love to see a consistent way to describe this tactile feeling over the internet.

I agree to start on the light end and the most you will loose is the time for 1,000 laps.

Originally Posted by rolodave

Stone in hand honing?
I've watched guys do this and my thought is I do not need any more stitches in my hand.

True.

I had it happen once, finishing stone was shorter than a finger's length, neither very thick, and I didn't have the experience of how to hold it without injuring oneself yet.

Vintage french true wedge, sliced quite nicely and easily into the palm. Woops. I understand people not wanting to do this, same goes for hand stropping; living on the edge!

On a hollow ground blade, you will quickly see if you are using too much pressure if you ink the bevels and look.

Too much pressure will flex the blade and lift the edge off the stone, the back of the bevel act as a fulcrum and the edge is not in contact, ink will remain on the edge, but is removed at the back of the bevel.

The trick is to look at the bevels and edge to see where you are making contact and adjust.

For a new guy to do a thousand laps is more dangerous than using too much pressure on a taped spine. When we drive a car, we make hundreds of corrections to drive a mile. Steering, gas, brake. Honing is no different.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

For a new guy to do a thousand laps is more dangerous than using too much pressure on a taped spine. When we drive a car, we make hundreds of corrections to drive a mile. Steering, gas, brake. Honing is no different.

My point with 1,000 laps was to pick a high number.

I did not mention not using tape or sharpie. I am an advocate of using tape at least for beginners and show blades.

The point that I was trying to make is using light pressure less metal is removed and therefore if you make a mistake it has less impact.

If you start at to high of a "grit" hone and use to little pressure the most you are loosing is your time and that time is spent learning.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

You need to find a technique that works for you. I do not subscribe to the hand holding stone method. I hone with the stone in a Steelex rubber stone holder on a bench in a plastic food tray.

I have taught a number of guys to hone in person, hands on and almost all of them do not use enough pressure. Which is which is why most new guys have trouble setting a bevel.

For years guys said, “Weight of the Blade”. But you cannot set a bevel or remove 1k stria with weight of the blade. Yea, you finish with weight of the blade, but not hone the whole blade that way.

Start with pressure, if you tape the spine, nothing bad will happen if you check your progress periodically, Ink the bevel. Once you are honing to the edge from heel to toe, you probably have set the bevel. Look at it, straight down on the edge, any shiny spots are where the bevels are not meeting. Reink and do a few more laps.

The worst that could happen is the edge is ragged, joint the edge smooth and flat and do a few rolling X laps with light pressures to get the bevels to meet again, 10-20 laps should do it.

Then remove the 1k stria with the next stone, start with a little slurry and some pressure, circles remove metal fast. Do sets of 20, one or two sets should remove most if not all 1k slurry, then half laps or X strokes, start with pressure and lighten the pressure as the bevels and edge refine.

You will need less and less pressure the finer the stria on the bevels and straighter the edge becomes. If the edge is ragged, joint and reset.
I hone with all my stones on the Steelex, even small stones, I have honed on small Jnats, Nagura really, and small 3-inch Arks, Set them on top of another stone with some rubber drawer liner between them.

So, just find what works for you, try different things. There is no one way or right way. It is what works for you.

Just use tape and you will not cause damage. If the tape feels squishy, replace it, you probably have burned through it. I use Kapton over electrical tape, it last longer and is smoother. An additional layer on your finish stone makes a nice micro bevel.

I have tried hand holding, it does not work for me. I see it as adding another variable. Try it and see if it works for you.

You are quite right of course, that edge repair and bevel setting require significant pressure. For me, heavy pressure means the slack weight of my honing arm. Mrs Crescent knocked a razor off my honing cart while getting milk from the fridge for my morning cappuccino. It was one of the dozen I have scheduled to finish this morning and they were all honed to 3u film and waiting for the 1u stage.She put a pretty good ding in the edge and abound 3/4" of the edge folded over into a burr. I have lately been setting bevels on my homemade sink bridge because when I do 10 or 20 razors at one time, it is less tiring. This repair I did in hand. No prob. You can use considerable pressure honing in hand. You just got to DO it.

Someone who has been bench honing all along and getting great results has no reason to switch. Plenty of experienced honers bench hone. I know, smartass that I am, I sometimes poke fun at all the expensive stone holders and sink bridges and special anti-skid honing mats and all, but I actually have a lot of respect for the edges that some bench honers achieve with nothing but rocks. It is the beginners or those struggling to up their game that I encourage to hone in hand, because honing in hand mitigates or eliminates most newbie mistakes. It requires less of the skill that only comes with experience.