Thread: Rolling X - I think I figured something out

The beauty of this sport is that you can drive the Ferrari if you want. Send out one of your razors to a honemeister. Tried and true.

James.

Originally Posted by planeden

Also, it will get loosey goosey going around a corner at 25 mph, so I get to have that livin' on the edge feel without breaking the speed limit .

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I want to thank yall again. I finally got around to getting the stones flattened out and got an evening to hone. I got one of my uneven razors honed up and shaved. I really appreciate the help.

First you can not equate freehand sharpening a knife with an X stroke to honing a razor, as you have in your initial post. A knife only has a single bevel contacting the stone and the bevel angle will change as hand position changes. With a razor the bevel and the spine must make full contact and that determines the bevel angle.

Both strokes are “Rolling” and cause a pressure shift. With an X stroke the pressure shift is unintentional, the slight centrifugal force causes the pressure shift automatically.

With a “Rolling” X stroke the Rolling is intentional and use to compensate for a curved, smiling edge or a warped razor.

Most razors have a bit of warp, but not enough to cause an issue. A warped razor has a concave and convex side. The concave side will contact the stone at the heel and toe if both are on the stone at the same time, the middle does not make contact or very lightly.

So, you must hone the two sides differently, Roll down on the Concave side and up on the Convex.

The Rolling X drops the heel off the stone about halfway across, allowing the middle to make full contact, on the Concave side. On the Convex side the heel is lifted slightly to hone the toe.

How much you drop, or lift depends on the amount of warp. For most razors, warp is very slight and almost, just thinking about lifting or dropping is enough to cause the roll needed.

The easiest way to learn the Rolling X is to use Glen’s One-Inch trick. Ink the bevel with colored ink, with a pencil draw a line one inch from the lower edge. Hone the razor heel leading, try to keep the pressure on the line and drop the heel off the stone about half-way across as the toe swings toward the lower corner.

Look at the bevel, with colored ink you do not need magnification to see where you are making contact. If the middle ink is not fully removed drop the heel more on that side. If the toe is not making contact lift the heel at that side.

The pencil line forces you to concentrate on the line and as the heel comes off the stone and the pressure shifts as the razor move to the lower corner.

Visualize a marble on the razor and you must keep the marble over the line as the toe goes from corner to corner.

There are several good videos on the rolling X and posts on Glen’s one inch method. Once you understand the goal and process, ink will train you how much roll is needed.

Most over think this simple stroke, and as said you must hone the edge as needed. If you try to force the edge in contact with pressure you will just cause more problems. That is why there are so many wonky edge vintage razors, folks tried to hone razors like knives.

Also as said razors that need correction, must be repaired before honing, like your razors that needs Heel Reprofiling. That is repair work, not honing. If you do not repair it, the razor will not sit flat on the stone, no matter which stroke you use.

Here is a great video of Charlie Lewis using a Rolling X stroke to hone a smiling, curved razor. Notice how much the heel comes up to hone the toe. Also note that most of the honing is done on the lower half of the stone, you can see where the razor is contacting the stone.

With a warped razor you need to drop the heel off the stone on the heel side and drop the heel, not lift.

I use an X stroke as finishing strokes on all razor to blend the edge, hone the toe and roll as needed.

Honing A Smiling Straight Razor Blade

Hi Euclid,

First Thanks for the info and detail. Let me break this down a bit.

"First you can not equate freehand sharpening a knife with an X stroke to honing a razor, as you have in your initial post. A knife only has a single bevel contacting the stone and the bevel angle will change as hand position changes. With a razor the bevel and the spine must make full contact and that determines the bevel angle."


I understand what you're saying. I think I misled you. When I sharpen a knife, I sort of lay it flat on the stone and lift the spine until I can feel that the bevel is in contact. Going by the feel of the knife on the stone to find and maintain the angle down the blade. Once I find that angle, as I slide the blade along the stone I can unconsciously make small adjustments to keep that feeling all along the edge. All I was trying to say here is that when I am doing rolling X on a razor, I can feel that sensation of the edge being in full flat contact. On a razor I am not lifting the spine, or changing the torque, but lifting and lowering the heel to keep that feeling of contact. Of course, the feeling is not exactly the same because the spine is on the edge.

"The easiest way to learn the Rolling X is to use Glen’s One-Inch trick. Ink the bevel with colored ink, with a pencil draw a line one inch from the lower edge. Hone the razor heel leading, try to keep the pressure on the line and drop the heel off the stone about half-way across as the toe swings toward the lower corner."

I have combined this with Crescent City Razor's suggestion of holding the hone in my hand. I have not gone so far as marking a line on my stone, but I do narrow my focus to a 0.75" to 1" swath on the stone. I have not quite figured out what is happening, but I think I am adjusting the stone with my off hand while keeping the razor pretty much flat. But CCR did say that it was sort of automatic.

"Visualize a marble on the razor and you must keep the marble over the line as the toe goes from corner to corner."

This is an interesting visualization. Thanks.

"Most over think this simple stroke, and as said you must hone the edge as needed. If you try to force the edge in contact with pressure you will just cause more problems. That is why there are so many wonky edge vintage razors, folks tried to hone razors like knives."

Think I was, maybe am still, certainly over thinking it. I think this sort of comes down to peoples methods of learning. I am definitely a learn by doing and kinda figuring out things myself. I think when Glen said "do what you need to do to get good contact" (paraphrased) it sunk in for me that I was over thinking the mechanics and just needed to fall back to my feelings and instincts. I understand that his statement may be problematic because it could imply that everything is allowed (lifting the spine, for instance) but I think it worked well for my simpleton brain.

"Most razors have a bit of warp, but not enough to cause an issue. A warped razor has a concave and convex side. The concave side will contact the stone at the heel and toe if both are on the stone at the same time, the middle does not make contact or very lightly."


For me, I think this is where my simpleton brain fizzles a bit. Knowing this kind of thing helps my understanding of the process, but I think the problem I was having is that my brain was telling my hand what it needed to do without really understanding how much I needed to raise and lower. So, I was just lifting and lowering and hoping. And, I think trying to get some sort of muscle memory on something that has so many variables that will change from one razor to the next was not really good for me. But, if I can get my hand to tell my brain what needs to happen by the feeling I can be much more consistent at hitting the edge.

"Also as said razors that need correction, must be repaired before honing, like your razors that needs Heel Reprofiling. That is repair work, not honing. If you do not repair it, the razor will not sit flat on the stone, no matter which stroke you use."

I will be getting to this soon. I have two blades that seem to be in pretty good shape before I get to the one I put in this thread earlier. I think I have done enough heel correction well enough to let it lay flat, but I am expecting to use a lot of ink on that one. It may start it's own thread, or it may just sit in a drawer while I am getting more practice on ones that are not quite so bad. Razors that don't even appear wonky are still not quite automatic for me yet. So, we will see how that one goes...maybe this weekend.

"I use an X stroke as finishing strokes on all razor to blend the edge, hone the toe and roll as needed."

This is not intuitive to me. I will have to play with this. I have found some, that I think someone has blunted the tip, where I am not yet able to roll enough to get the toe. I know I should probably leave it blunted, but for this I have been just honing the toe end of the razor along one side of the stone. Then I will do a rolling X along the length to try to even it out.

So, I am not sure if that clarifies anything.

One thing I think I still need to work on pressure. With a nice razor with flat X strokes with the stone on the table I'd generally set the 1K bevel up through all the stones with barely a mark on my tape. But, with all this new stuff I should be changing the tape after the 4K stone. I don't really feel like I am applying pressure, but I must be to try to make sure I am keeping the blade on the stone while the stone is floating around. This was one of the things I was worried about when trying to hold the stone in my hand. So, I just gotta figure it out.

Lemmy see if I can explain this.

U say you've adopted honing in hand, but not sure what's going on.

If your just holding, and not gripping the hone tightly, the hone will rock n move with the weight and pressure you exert on it.

In essence, it rights your wrongs.

Say you put to much pressure on the heel, during your stroke, the hone will tilt to compensate, to keep itself flat to the razor. This will also help in controlling the edge, along that 1" of hone.

Its a very natural motion, once it clicks for ya. Its the only way I hone the majority of my razors, and knives.

Originally Posted by outback

Lemmy see if I can explain this.

U say you've adopted honing in hand, but not sure what's going on.

If your just holding, and not gripping the hone tightly, the hone will rock n move with the weight and pressure you exert on it.

In essence, it rights your wrongs.

Say you put to much pressure on the heel, during your stroke, the hone will tilt to compensate, to keep itself flat to the razor. This will also help in controlling the edge, along that 1" of hone.

Its a very natural motion, once it clicks for ya. Its the only way I hone the majority of my razors, and knives.

The harder I try the harder it is to explain. Let me start with that I think we are probably talking about the same thing. It's just hard because it is all subjective. Also, I haven't honed with the stone in hand for 30 years or so, so I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing. And still probably going to figure out more things every time I do it.

As I hold the stone I'm basically thinking about three movements. The height above the table, the tilt in the long direction (edge to spine, if you will) and tilt in the narrow direction (toe to heel). I don't have the steadiest of hands, so what I'm playing with is pressing my forearm into the edge of the table to keep the height of the stone the steady. But I leave my wrist a little loose so it can tilt.

When I said I'm not sure what's going on, I think I was just saying too much /thinking too hard. All I meant is that I'm not sure if the stone is floating to follow the razor, if I'm making small adjustments of the stone without thinking about it, or a combination of the two. But, it's one of those things that I don't think really matters (if it's working) except that it bugs me. I really didn't think it would work, so when it did (and so easily), I was trying to understand the magic. I really thought everything would be moving so much the razor would be clacking around on the stone.

But, however it is described, I feel like I'm on the right track. I think I got five razors honed in two evenings. And the one that was the hardest was the one that I thought would be easier to have the stone on the table.

Originally Posted by outback

Lemmy see if I can explain this.

U say you've adopted honing in hand, but not sure what's going on.

If your just holding, and not gripping the hone tightly, the hone will rock n move with the weight and pressure you exert on it.

In essence, it rights your wrongs.

Say you put to much pressure on the heel, during your stroke, the hone will tilt to compensate, to keep itself flat to the razor. This will also help in controlling the edge, along that 1" of hone.

Its a very natural motion, once it clicks for ya. Its the only way I hone the majority of my razors, and knives.

I been doing this for decades and I have been advocating honing in hand ever since I stumbled on to the fact that that newfangled internet thing had razor discussion forums, but I never found a way to explain it as well as you just did. It is exactly right.

Originally Posted by planeden

The harder I try the harder it is to explain. Let me start with that I think we are probably talking about the same thing. It's just hard because it is all subjective. Also, I haven't honed with the stone in hand for 30 years or so, so I'm still trying to figure out what I'm doing. And still probably going to figure out more things every time I do it.

As I hold the stone I'm basically thinking about three movements. The height above the table, the tilt in the long direction (edge to spine, if you will) and tilt in the narrow direction (toe to heel). I don't have the steadiest of hands, so what I'm playing with is pressing my forearm into the edge of the table to keep the height of the stone the steady. But I leave my wrist a little loose so it can tilt.

When I said I'm not sure what's going on, I think I was just saying too much /thinking too hard. All I meant is that I'm not sure if the stone is floating to follow the razor, if I'm making small adjustments of the stone without thinking about it, or a combination of the two. But, it's one of those things that I don't think really matters (if it's working) except that it bugs me. I really didn't think it would work, so when it did (and so easily), I was trying to understand the magic. I really thought everything would be moving so much the razor would be clacking around on the stone.

But, however it is described, I feel like I'm on the right track. I think I got five razors honed in two evenings. And the one that was the hardest was the one that I thought would be easier to have the stone on the table.

It works better if you do NOT support the holding hand. Don't even tuck your elbow in close to your body. You want it floating out there like its in space. Don't think about where it's at. Let razor and hone find each other and dock gently. This is how you get that super light pressure that gives you a great finish.

This thread has alot of fantastic advice. I have enjoyed reading and absorbing all this detailed info from you experienced guys. Thanks to all who have contributed.