Thread: Straight Razors Dull Despite Little Use

My King 1k is only 2 1/2 " wide x 8 inchs long, it causes me no isues in terms of size though I admit it feels a little bit unnatural not being able to fit the entire length of the razor on the width of the stone at once. This doesn't seem relevant with rolling x strokes.



His edges look extremely smooth to me. Whether his technique is actually properly competitive with a skilled honer following traditional techniques, it seems like a lot of the criticism directed at his style doesn't add up. He's not really going for feather style "extremely, uncomfortably sharp but not smooth" and he's not really going for knife style sharp either. He has separate pages where he goes over what happens to a knife on a honing steel, how the steel causes a micro-serrated looking edge that would be horribly uncomfortable to shave with, but is ideal for cutting with a drawing motion. He may use techniques that are more reminiscent of knife sharpening in his razor pages, but the results certainly look very smooth, and he does shave with them so they can't be that bad.

From what I have heard, the primitive looking king 1k/6k guide where he's sandbagging his technique by using the worst stones he has, is not really his main thing either, I think he does use finishing stones as well, he just doesn't include those steps in his most basic guide. I would have to go rooting through his comment section to see what his most recent tech is though, as he doesn't really update his guides as much as respond to people in comments with new information. It appears that his finishing technique involving loaded leather, and loaded denim, is necessary to compensate for the roughness that would be caused by removing a foil edge, and I don't have any loaded leather, so it's probably not good for me.

Again, I'm not really suggesting "He's right and the traditional style is wrong" or even "his style is as effective as the traditional style" which is apparently just as controversial, but I think he is being handwaved excessively. That guy has put all of his egghead science to trial on his own face, and compared it directly with the traditional style, he's not just taking shots in the dark.

Originally Posted by rickytimothy

I figured that always honing in with leading edge would cause the rough edge that is known for being a positive thing with knives, and that the trailing style actually accomplishes the opposite. Maybe I got the wrong impression because in his main honing guide on Science of Sharp he deliberately sandbags by using a characteristically aggressive bevel setter, which made the edge look awful in the photos with edge leading.

It makes sense to bias towards the feel test. If it looks smoother on the SEM but people say it feels rougher, feel wins.

I got all my tripods and lighting ready to go, if I can find a plastics place that will sell me a big block of acrylic I'll make a video trying to do a 1 micron finish this weekend.

Don't think. Don't rely on your own ideas. Follow an accomplished honer's method, with his tool set, if you want to succeed. Someone in the community and acknowledged by his peers, not a knife guy or general sharpening guy. Or, don't. Whatevah. Once you have created several edges that shave easily and smoothly, THEN feel free to try stuff that seems like a great idea. The reason you are not progressing is because you are not moving in a straight and established path.

A film progression works great. I usually prefer either good quality sandpaper or better yet a nice Kuromaku or Chosera stone for a bevel setter. Setting a bevel can run through a lot of film and you need to start with like 60µ or 40µ then 30, 15, and maybe 12µ before it is ready for the finer grades. The King can work, but nobody will tell you that it is just as good as one of the other stones I just named. Even the Norton 1k, either very old vintage or brand new production, is better than the King, AFAIC. (Norton went through a period of really crap production IYAM and according to many others, too.)

The toothiness of the edge is a product of scratch depth and density. The bottom of a scratch is at about the same angle relative to the central plane of the blade, as the bevel face. So obviously if the bottom of the scratch is placed deeply into the bevel face, at the edge where the two bevel faces intersect, there will be a notch. Two notches right next to each other make a tooth between them. The initial steel removal of setting the bevel is done with some pressure. Pressure creates deeper scratches. As the bevel comes in, pressure should be lightened. This is one reason for honing in hand, and not on a bench or other unyielding object. Also, the stone is free to roll in the hand, and does so quite naturally as you x-stroke the razor.

Anyway, back to scratch depth. So lightening pressure when the bevel is fully or nearly fully formed, reduces depth of new scratches, and the further removal of steel reduces the existing scratches. Another thing you can do is increase the viscosity of your honing fluid, which I assume is water. Using an oil, or a soapy substance, or glycerine, maybe in solution with water, forms a buffer that allows the razor to stand off from the stone a few microns, so contact with the stone is less forceful and the stone cuts more shallowly. Some stones are better with some fluids than others. Some binding agents in synthetic stones, for instance, are said to soften or dissolve in oils, particularly very low viscosity oils that also make good solvents, such as diesel fuel. Vegetable based oils oxidize over time and harden, clogging a stone and making it load up and glaze. That's how many wood finishing oils work. What is good for wood sucks for a stone used for honing.

You have a loupe now. It is time to get really dedicated about looking at your edge under a single bright point of light, rolling the razor with the bevel face positioned so that the reflection sweeps across the bevel face. Also observe the upturned edge, turned right at your loupe. Use your sharpie mercilessly. Paint that bevel frequently, and look at your contact areas, or more importantly, your non contact areas. No contact = no bevel set. Look also for burr. A very light and fine slurry can help to remove it. Also you can use a few pull strokes to strip these artifacts from the edge. Finally try adding a couple dozen VERY LIGHT, VERY SHORT x stroke laps. Out, and back. That's a lap. Be careful flipping the blade at the end of the stroke to go the other direction. A good rule of thumb is to always flip the EDGE up and over, keeping the spine on the stone. Just like stropping. Don't let it slap down onto the stone, either. Take your time. You have already been at this for quite some weeks now. An extra hour isn't a dealbreaker.

A set bevel should give good feedback on the ThumbNail Test, or TNT. At this stage the HHT or TTT will be neither conclusive, nor relevant. Some guys like Alfredo over on B&B like the cherry tomato test. Feel free to shave a patch on your forearm. It should shave forearm hair with ease and comfort. Finally, it should pass your most rigorous visual inspection. Toothiness is relative. A 12k edge is toothy, under high enough magnification. Each stage, each grit change, makes its own scratch pattern and characteristic depth. Each stage is supposed to completely remove the previous stage scratches by removing a layer of steel as thick as the scratches are deep. It removes those coarser scratches and leaves behind its own, new, finer scratches. The next grit removes THOSE scratches, and leaves its own finer ones. It is progressive action, in stages, and that is why we call it progression honing. Along the way, keep an eye out for artifacts such as bits of burr or wire edge. These mostly result from a combination of too many laps and too much pressure, which flexes the edge upward and thins the steel immediately behind the edge without fully contacting the actual edge. If pressure is light enough, there can be no wire edge or burr. If honing is stopped before it forms, same thing. Pull strokes help to clear these artifacts but they also leave scratches parallel to the edge, and this can be a problem if in excess, so the actual finish of each stage should be done with very short X strokes. Just imagine that your stone is only 3" long, and you will have it nailed.

Also keeping the razor on one side for multiple strokes, whether one direction or back and forth, raises a very pronounced burr. This can be used to good effect, but on your Dovo I believe you are probably far enough into the process that raising a burr deliberately would be two steps forward and seven steps back. So stick with normal laps. Stroke one way, edge leading. At the end of the stroke flip the edge up and over, and stroke back the opposite way, edge leading. That is one lap. This is the standard, usual way of honing a razor. Grinding away at one side at a time has its place, but you are past that place. Edge trailing has its place but is a specialized technique and you don't want any specialized techniques right now. Stick to the well trodden path. The main stream. Don't get lost on the bayous, stay in the river.

You keep relying on your own understanding, before you have any understanding. That is shooting yourself in the foot. Now get that bevel set and KNOW it is set. PROVE to yourself that it is set and set well, with no edge boogers left to break off on you. Once you have your bevel set, stop and consider how to proceed. If you go with films, get the RIGHT STUFF or your efforts are doomed. Believe me, I started using films almost in the first wave, and have honed more razors on film than on stones. The wrong stuff is EVERYWHERE and it will mess you up. A nice thick plate helps a lot. Order from TAP Plastics. That is my always source. Random sources sell you random stuff of random quality. Now I began with half inch thick and found it kind of scary, with my fingertips intruding into the honing plane while holding the plate in hand. I went with 3/4" then 1" and now 1-1/2" which satisfies me very much. However the reason I first went with half inch is that it hardly flexes at all. Once you are at a half inch or more, you COULD make up the thickness with a piece of wood. Maybe a piece cut from a 2x6 or something. Yes, wood flexes and warps and swells and contracts, both with age and with changes in humidity. If you use a flexible cement to attach the acrylic, and a fairly thick layer at that, the dimensional instability of the wood should have zero effect on the dimensional stability of the acrylic. Think Gorilla Glue or Barge brand rubber cement. Less hassle to just order the thick acrylic and be done with it, but this is an option and I know of one guy in the Philippines who has trouble getting packages shipped to him, and uses 1/4" or so acrylic from the local village hardware store, glued to various backings to make up the thickness desired. He does this for his film honing, and also for his balsa platform.

Hey, I did get a bevel set! I am making major progress, and that last video I was linked was very helpful indeed. I think a big part of the problem was that I was just not spending enough time on the bevel setting hone with one technique. With my latest attempt, it took approximately 70-80 strokes total, including dulling it against my thumbnail a couple times when it was uneven, to get it to a decent set where it would cut all the way down both sides of the blade, where previously I was only using maybe 30 strokes.

My blade seems to be in decent shape now, for sure shaveable at least. Now, as a matter of improvement, it's mostly figuring out: Where do I go from here? Getting the 1 micron film and a block to hold it is priority for this week, that should help.

After that I am very curious to see how close in sharpness my Dovo will be to Paul's razor. At that point the remaining difficult question to answer will be, I expect: "What is the biggest contributor to the difference in sharpness? Is it that he set a much better bevel? More finesse on the finishing stones? Better stropping?" Time will tell.

I am following established techniques now. I spent a decent amount of time trying to use the scienceofsharp method (mostly, missing some of his gear,) and couldn't get a good edge with it, so default to tradition it is.

Just had a couple funny interactions, I called both of the biggest local plastic companies locally, both of them told me to glue a thin piece of acrylic to a piece of wood.

Counting laps is like counting chickens before they hatch.

The bevel is set, when it is.

With my latest attempt, that is exactly what I changed. I just kept going until it felt sticky to my thumbpad all the way along the edge, and would cut arm hair along the edge on both sides of the blade (previously it never occurred to me that one side could cut, but not the other, and frankly I have no good explanation for why that happens.) I was only counting up to my 70 or so to calibrate some idea of how long it is taking, i.e. "this is taking more strokes than usual, it must be very dull." I'm not limiting myself for no reason.

I think the assumption I was operating on previously was mostly "after approx. this many strokes, if the bevel does not feel set, then the technique you are using is probably wrong (obvious exceptions for very dull razors, but this one was never that dull.)"

Seems like things have been coming along well for you!! What a great feeling, am I right.
-Laramie-

Originally Posted by rickytimothy

Hey, I did get a bevel set! I am making major progress, and that last video I was linked was very helpful indeed. I think a big part of the problem was that I was just not spending enough time on the bevel setting hone with one technique. With my latest attempt, it took approximately 70-80 strokes total, including dulling it against my thumbnail a couple times when it was uneven, to get it to a decent set where it would cut all the way down both sides of the blade, where previously I was only using maybe 30 strokes.

My blade seems to be in decent shape now, for sure shaveable at least. Now, as a matter of improvement, it's mostly figuring out: Where do I go from here? Getting the 1 micron film and a block to hold it is priority for this week, that should help.

After that I am very curious to see how close in sharpness my Dovo will be to Paul's razor. At that point the remaining difficult question to answer will be, I expect: "What is the biggest contributor to the difference in sharpness? Is it that he set a much better bevel? More finesse on the finishing stones? Better stropping?" Time will tell.

I am following established techniques now. I spent a decent amount of time trying to use the scienceofsharp method (mostly, missing some of his gear,) and couldn't get a good edge with it, so default to tradition it is.

I have used literally hundreds of laps to get a bevel set. I have also set a bevel with a dozen or so laps. The only situation where counting laps really is useful, is balancing the laps on both sides when setting a bevel using the burr method, which you obviously do not need, and post finish on the lapped and pasted balsa progression, because feedback is nil and after the .5µ the visual inspection doesn't really tell you when a stage is done. Hone hone hone until the bevel is set, and disregard the number of laps.

If you are sure that your bevel is truly set, then you are ready for your progression. Your stones are lapped, but you could use a decent finisher. Correct? If you want to go with a film progression, start with 9µ. Or maybe 15µ and then 9µ. Pay attention to how the razor sort of sucks down onto the film. Or stone. It will seem to grab when the bevel face has improved to the point that it creates suction with the honing surface. That's when you are almost finished with the stage. Transition to extremely light laps, mix in some pull strokes, and end with very short x strokes. Test your razor and notice the improvement. Try shaving a bit of your cheek. Then change film, go with the 3µ film, same thing. Stiction will be very pronounced when this stage is nearly done. You may have to add a couple of drops of dish soap to the honing water to keep the edge from nose diving into the film. Also lead more with the heel. The 1µ, being your finisher, is what leaves you with the lasting impression after the shave stroke. Every stage is equally important. One stage cannot go back and make up for a previous stage not doing its job. But extra care in the "finish of the finish" can make your shave a lot more comfortable and effortless. Once you max out on the 1µ film, and do your pulls and short x strokes, whip up some nice shave lather and slather it all over your film, and with very light pressure, hone some more. Gradually lighten pressure as you go. Takes a couple hundred laps to do this right. As pressure is reduced, the razor floats higher on the buffer of lather. It will seem like the razor isn't even touching the film. This is where you really want to keep going. This definitely kicks the edge up to another level. Then strop, no paste. Clean hanging leather strop. Your shave should be as good as any pro edge. It should be very sharp, and in comfort, not far off from a good Jnat edge, and somewhat more comfortable than a 12k Naniwa SuperStone edge.

If by "thin", you mean a half inch, that is fine. A quarter inch is kind of okay. Less than that and you have what I regard as an unacceptable amount of flex. When the underlying platform warps, the warp is transferred to the acrylic. You can glue multiple layers of acrylic together to make up a quarter inch or greater thickness. Glueing acrylic actually involves a solvent such as MEK, or Methyl Ethyl Ketone. Acetone can work if you get good quality acetone, though not as good as MEK. There are purposed acrylic cements that are even better. This is actually more of a solvent welding technique. Practice on a few small pieces before you commit to foot long plates. When done correctly, the end result is indistinguishable from a single cast or extruded plate. Another possibility is using a 3" or 4" wide "bullnose" tile, used as a baseboard sort of thing, made of polished marble, NOT CERAMIC. These are fairly flat and stable, but are of course heavier than wood or acrylic. A sandwich of styrofoam, marble tile, and even fairly thin acrylic should work fine, except of course there is the weight increase from the tile. You could try pouring a sub plate, using polyester resin or epoxy. As it sets, it will shrink and warp, so it must be lapped after it has stabilized for a week or so, then it will be about the same weight as if it were acrylic. Glue the acrylic to that and you ought to be okay. Best is to order from TAP. Creating from scratch what you can simply order direct, costs you more in your own time and frustration, than money spent getting the real thing. Remember, your solid monolithic acrylic plate can easily last for centuries. Maybe millennia. Somewhere along the line, the $30 or so cost will have paid for itself, one would think.

Glad you are emerging from the honing wilderness now. Don't worry, there will be plenty of opportunity in the future to try weird stuff. Getting that first truly great edge is an important milestone, an intense moment, and a supreme confidence builder. Remember to save your grinning for after your shave, so you don't cut yourself with your crazy sharp edge!

Your plastics vendors do not hone, nor shave with, straight razors, I am guessing. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by yondermountain91

Seems like things have been coming along well for you!! What a great feeling, am I right.
-Laramie-

Load off my shoulders, you have no idea. Not that this one project has been particularly stressful, but I have 7-8 different projects going at once right now, it gets super frustrating going back to just one of them and making zero progress on it over and over and over again for years. There's nothing worse than the feeling like you have learned nothing after spending so many hours studying and practicing.

Originally Posted by CrescentCityRazors

Glad you are emerging from the honing wilderness now. Don't worry, there will be plenty of opportunity in the future to try weird stuff. Getting that first truly great edge is an important milestone, an intense moment, and a supreme confidence builder. Remember to save your grinning for after your shave, so you don't cut yourself with your crazy sharp edge!

Amen brother

We might have some of these acrylic solvents in our chemistry lab at work here, I'll have to check. Normally when we look at metal under a microscope we cast it in epoxy first so it's easier to handle, we do lots of plastic related stuff. I think that website you linked will probably have brutal shipping to Canada, if they ship here at all, that's usually how these things go. Apparently amazon sells blocks like that, so I'll check there too.

This film progression you're talking about, is this after the 8k, or in place of it?

What I was planning on doing was 1k stone > 4k stone > 8k stone > 1 micron film. I believe 8k is basically the same as 3 micron, so I don't really see any point in working 3 micron in there, or higher. I prefer stones to paper in general, and already spent a whole bunch of money on them, so I figure I might as well use them. The only hangup is the expensive finishing stones.