Thread: Straight Razors Dull Despite Little Use

Originally Posted by rickytimothy

Surely someone here has done a comparison of 8k vs finishing stone here after become skilled at honing. How big was the difference?

Right now I have lots of good reasons to assume a lot of the difference between my current razor and paul's is just skill.

The difference is VERY significant, given a reasonable degree of skill. There are lightyears between a good 8k edge, which should shave okay, and a well executed 12k synth edge or a good natural stone edge. Or a 1µ lapping film edge. With any tool kit, there are about a million times more ways to get a mediocre or even a lousy edge, than a great one.

Paul's skill level or any accomplished honer's skill level absolutely makes a big difference. The thing is, nobody is keeping their methods secret. Nearly any honer on any straight razor forum will share their method in great detail, the greater detail going to those who seem to be the most teachable.

I think you mentioned the high cost of a good finisher in another thread. High cost of course is relative. Guys who routinely buy $350 to $1200 razors don't find Naniwa or Shapton, or workman grade Jnats, to be expensive. Someone who can only afford to spend $40 or so on a stone is sort of left out in the cold. Sort of...

https://www.tapplastics.com/product/...cast_clear/510

You want 1-1/2" thick, 3" wide, 12" long. Trust me on this. This is the ideal size, so don't fall into the false economy of downsizing. Since it will last forever and be usable with any grit of film or sandpaper, and cannot be damaged by any reasonable means, and the cost of even this generously sized chunk of acrylic is much lower than even a mediocre Chinese no-name stone listed as a finisher, it is highly economical. Best results are from holding in hand, not resting on a bench or other unyielding surface, and you want it thick enough to keep your fingertips out of the path of the razor. Acrylic is light enough that the weight is not prohibitive. The material is essentially unbreakable and not prone to flexing or warping, and since the razor does not touch the acrylic, it does not wear, and never needs to be lapped, though lightly chamfering the edges at maybe a 1/16" radius is not a bad idea.

https://www.newark.com/3m/262x-1-mic...AX-Med-ROAS-V1

3M type 261x or type 262x (1µ grit is only in type 262x for some reason but AFAIK 261 and 262 are the same) NON PSA backing. DO NOT attempt to use PSA film. It will bite you in the ass with astonishing regularity because you cannot easily reposition the film. One sheet is normally cut into thirds lengthwise. Each piece should do at least a dozen razors, maybe as many as 20, so between 36 and 60 razors from one sheet.

So there's a very good finisher for about $30. Ongoing costs of a few cents per razor for new film. I honestly don't know how you would go any cheaper with a reasonable amount of real estate to hone on. Like stones, you can turn out a not so great edge, or you can finesse a pretty good edge. 1µ is a little finer than a 12k Naniwa Superstone and is basically interchangeable in a synthetic progression for that stone. There is a very good thread on this on another forum that I will decline from naming. Beware. It is REALLY EASY to get the wrong stuff. Also be careful not to slice into your film.

Once you have the plate, no reason not to get the 3µ and 9µ film, too. Then use a good bevel setter such as the Naniwa Chosera, and run the film progression.

Learn to do this and maybe I will tell you the correct way to use diamond paste with balsa to go crazy sharp and surprisingly smooth. Do it wrong and you won't get nearly as sharp and you won't get nearly as smooth. But learn to create a professional quality 1µ film or 12k Naniwa or a good natural edge first, or you waste your time and anybody else's who tries to help.

Interesting idea with the very thick plastic. When I first tried honing a razor, it was a dull antique (very solid razor though, just dull,) and I had no good way of setting a bevel at the time, so I just had this 1/4" thick acrylic with I think 3 micron lapping film. Naturally it was awkward to use and did not help the razor at all.

If 3" x 12" is the way to go, its the way to go. I'll maybe make room by getting rid of that big 120 grit truing stone I have. Now that I know how much damage it likes to do to the higher grit stones, I don't really see any point in keeping that thing around.

Funny to think, a couple years ago I phoned up a guy who had a 12k Naniwa superstone for sale locally, but he was in the middle of selling it as I called. Naturally, it was my local teacher who turned out to be the one who bought it.

Is it common practice to do some edge trailing strokes on the finishing stone before the pasted strop?

The Science of Sharp photos imply that you end up with a smoother edge if you intentionally create a little bit of a foil edge right at the end, then remove it with pasted denim, as opposed to if you stick to exclusively edge leading start to finish.

Originally Posted by rickytimothy

Is it common practice to do some edge trailing strokes on the finishing stone before the pasted strop?

No it's very uncommon tho I remember gssixgun had a technique on 30k Shapton, that involved 2 trailing strokes.
If you read any of the old barber's manuals razors are honed edge leading

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tL-qfTQ78Y&t=1s

The Science of Sharp photos imply that you end up with a smoother edge if you intentionally create a little bit of a foil edge right at the end, then remove it with pasted denim, as opposed to if you stick to exclusively edge leading start to finish.

Sorry if I sound harsh but Science of Sharp is just another knife guy trying to apply knife sharpening techniques to razors.
The reason we don't like foil edges is that when they break off they don't break clean & we're all about comfort not just sharp.

Great entertainment, Gents!

Carry on!

I figured that always honing in with leading edge would cause the rough edge that is known for being a positive thing with knives, and that the trailing style actually accomplishes the opposite. Maybe I got the wrong impression because in his main honing guide on Science of Sharp he deliberately sandbags by using a characteristically aggressive bevel setter, which made the edge look awful in the photos with edge leading.

It makes sense to bias towards the feel test. If it looks smoother on the SEM but people say it feels rougher, feel wins.

I got all my tripods and lighting ready to go, if I can find a plastics place that will sell me a big block of acrylic I'll make a video trying to do a 1 micron finish this weekend.

Originally Posted by sharptonn

Great entertainment, Gents!

Carry on!

............

Originally Posted by rickytimothy

I figured that always honing in with leading edge would cause the rough edge that is known for being a positive thing with knives, and that the trailing style actually accomplishes the opposite. Maybe I got the wrong impression because in his main honing guide on Science of Sharp he deliberately sandbags by using a characteristically aggressive bevel setter, which made the edge look awful in the photos with edge leading.

Nope.
Edge trailing strokes cause a bigger burr & I already said you don't want that on a razor.

Originally Posted by rickytimothy

Is it common practice to do some edge trailing strokes on the finishing stone before the pasted strop?

The Science of Sharp photos imply that you end up with a smoother edge if you intentionally create a little bit of a foil edge right at the end, then remove it with pasted denim, as opposed to if you stick to exclusively edge leading start to finish.

Most of us don't do that. Like I said before, Science of Sharp is about sharpening stuff. This forum is about RAZORS. Which is more relevant? Get your honing method from the straight shaving community. Or don't. Whatevah.

2x6 is plenty of size. Bigger is nicer but only in the low grits. Vintage natural finishing stones are in the 2x6 size. But your opening another can of worms. Finishing stones. Just stick with synthetic like a 12k or 16k or 20k. And yes, they make a lot of difference than an 8k or we wouldnt spend the time and effort.

Sharp is only half the battle of learning to hone. Understanding smooth is the other half. And that is when it starts to come together. I learned to make sharp. But some folks didnt enjoy it much.