Thread: Coticule and what i think

Originally Posted by gary haywood

I for one enjoyed reading barts post and will miss them he was very helpful and a good member

I wholeheartedly agree.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Ah, well I must admit I did not read that thread in its entirety. I do not use my coticule very often, so I tend to not pay a lot of attention to coticule-based threads.

It is certainly important to ensure newer users get a balanced view of all aspects of straight razors including honing, although I do wonder why they would be perusing the Advanced Honing Topics forum, or if they are why they would think the ideas expressed in there are appropriate to someone with little to no experience - maybe a sticky warning them that the basic honing forum is more appropriate to their needs would be in order?

James.

FWIW, if I'm not mistaekn, the thread was originally in Basic Honing. Looks like it was moved to the advanced section when it was re-opened.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I do wonder why they would be perusing the Advanced Honing Topics forum

Maybe like me they hit the "New Posts" link when they visit the site and just scan the list for something interesting.

It's pretty hard to avoid coticule threads on this site right now. It's getting out of hand. Most of them are rehashing the same ideas over and over. It's not even as if there is any major disagreement on what a coti is. It is mostly a known quantity even if there are interesting ways to experiment with them.

When I first joined this forum over a year ago, to coticule was pushed a very versatile stone. It was said that between using a slurry, using it wet, and using it dry you could accomplish a range of honing duties with it.

It was also understood, at least by me, that if a stone removes any amount of metal, then in time with enough laps you could theoretically set a bevel with it. That's just common sense to me.

I don't see what Bart did as being so far flung from what was already understood about the coticule.

I mean he was doing it. It's not like he was theorizing about it. He was honing blades with his method and shaving with them. I don't think you can say something is beyond the means of the stone is it is clearly being done. I never understood why so many people had issues with it, saying it didn't work, clearly, by virtue of the fact that he(and others) were doing it, it worked.

Now was it the best method? No. Though I don't think he ever stated it was. Did it provide the better shave then following it up with a higher grit stone? Maybe not. Though again, I don't recall him ever making that claim either.

He liked coticules and wanted to come up with a repeatable method for an entire honing progression using that one stone.

I for one hope he does come back. His methods to studying the different aspects of honing were amazing. His leaving this forum will be a greater loss then many may think. Any time you lose the input of someone like that it's a huge loss.

Just my venting, I liked Bart.

Originally Posted by JCitron

When I first joined this forum over a year ago, to coticule was pushed a very versatile stone. It was said that between using a slurry, using it wet, and using it dry you could accomplish a range of honing duties with it.

It was also understood, at least by me, that if a stone removes any amount of metal, then in time with enough laps you could theoretically set a bevel with it. That's just common sense to me.

I don't see what Bart did as being so far flung from what was already understood about the coticule.

I mean he was doing it. It's not like he was theorizing about it. He was honing blades with his method and shaving with them. I don't think you can say something is beyond the means of the stone is it is clearly being done. I never understood why so many people had issues with it, saying it didn't work, clearly, by virtue of the fact that he(and others) were doing it, it worked.

Now was it the best method? No. Though I don't think he ever stated it was. Did it provide the better shave then following it up with a higher grit stone? Maybe not. Though again, I don't recall him ever making that claim either.

He liked coticules and wanted to come up with a repeatable method for an entire honing progression using that one stone.

I for one hope he does come back. His methods to studying the different aspects of honing were amazing. His leaving this forum will be a greater loss then many may think. Any time you lose the input of someone like that it's a huge loss.

Just my venting, I liked Bart.

I don't recall anyone saying that it straight up doesn't work, only that it wasn't the most efficient or consistent method, and therefore not the "best" way to accomplish the task.

I think everyone would agree that it is possible, just not practical in every application.

It's really not even a matter of whether or not it's possible, it's a matter of what people think when they read about it. As I mentioned, particularly newbies. Some people think the newbies get the wrong idea when they read all the success stories. They weren't reading many comparison or failure stories which was giving a misleading representation of the coticule, in some people's opinions.

True enough, though, that Bart wasn't pushing this method or claiming it to be the best/only method or anything like that. My take was always that he was merely presenting his findings and what worked for him. Sure, he wasn't presenting any brand new ideas never before tried, but he was presenting them in an easy to follow way that produced what he found to be the most repeatable results after playing with his coticules for countless hours.

Twenty five or so years ago when I took a shot at straight razor shaving the old barbers that I used to talk to in Newark, NJ all used coticules. They didn't call them that they called them soap stones. This was because they used lather as the vehicle for honing. I ended up with three of them purchased from various old fellows who no longer shaved customers. I kick myself for ebaying the three stones twenty some years after and about a year before I got into the shaving forums.

Aside from their performance I am fascinated with the coticule because of the history behind them. The same as a W&B or a Wostenholm. Using a tool that goes back that far is part of the mystique that attracted me to straight razor shaving in the first place. Sure there are other hones that will get a razor sharper faster and I use them as well but there is a cool factor IMO that a coticule has that a synthetic stone just cannot match even if it is a "better" finisher. The same can be said of the Escher and the Nakayama.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Twenty five or so years ago when I took a shot at straight razor shaving the old barbers that I used to talk to in Newark, NJ all used coticules. They didn't call them that they called them soap stones. This was because they used lather as the vehicle for honing. I ended up with three of them purchased from various old fellows who no longer shaved customers. I kick myself for ebaying the three stones twenty some years after and about a year before I got into the shaving forums.

Aside from their performance I am fascinated with the coticule because of the history behind them. The same as a W&B or a Wostenholm. Using a tool that goes back that far is part of the mystique that attracted me to straight razor shaving in the first place. Sure there are other hones that will get a razor sharper faster and I use them as well but there is a cool factor IMO that a coticule has that a synthetic stone just cannot match even if it is a "better" finisher. The same can be said of the Escher and the Nakayama.

I like the coticule for the same reasons plus i have been a barber for 22 years and i regret actualy throwing away an old dished soap stone as they called them and an old strop along with a good 10 razor what a fool nver mind.. Jimmy you say newark is that in england as i live in nottingham not far away from newark.

Originally Posted by gary haywood

I like the coticule for the same reasons plus i have been a barber for 22 years and i regret actualy throwing away an old dished soap stone as they called them and an old strop along with a good 10 razor what a fool nver mind.. Jimmy you say newark is that in england as i live in nottingham not far away from newark.

No Gary, I am referring to the lovely city of Newark in the garden state of New Jersey in the USA. In the North Ward to be specific where you could buy bread at Calandra's, pastry at Ferrara's and have dinner at Biasi's or go over to Freddy's red hots adjacent to Branch Brook park and have hot dogs with mustard cheese and hot onions that burned at both ends. I'm talking 25 years ago, I don't know what is there now and anyone who knows the place rolled their eyes when they read "lovely".

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I don't know what is there now and anyone who knows the place rolled their eyes when they read "lovely".

Guilty as charged!

I understand that a newbie that reads about just using one coti and all the success may go out and buy one. But honestly, what's the worst that would come of it? The method dosn't work for them, they pick up a lower grit hone to set bevels, and they're fine.

It's not as if the he was preaching using a stone that has no use outside of his method. I think any newb would be just as swayed by the countless posts about the "best" finishers as they would this idea.

Also, though we call them newbies, these are all full grown adults here. It's not as if we're preaching to impressionable minds of youth. You see everyday several newbs posting questions before they go out and buy items. I think for the most part incorrect assumptions come before they find this site.

How can we sit here and all day long point them to the wiki, and the search function so that they can find all the info they need, and at the same time tell someone that the method they propose may mislead a newbie. If we want new members to learn all they can before making decisions, we should allow our members to post all possible methods.

And FWIW, I'm in the camp that just because something takes an extra 30 minutes doesn't make it a lesser option if you're a casual honer. If I honed several blades a day, I would absolutely want the quickest, most reliable method. But I don't, and I don't think most newbs to this site do either.

I guess it all depends if you hone for the journey, or you hone for the end product.

I will mail a cookie to anyone who actually read through both of these long posts.