Thread: Post your Progression

DMTC (325)
KING 800
NANIWA 3K or KING 4K
NANIWA 8K
ESCHER W SLURRY
ESCHER

Sometimes I use a coticule to bridge between the Naniwa 8K and the Escher, but it makes little difference other than consuming my time.

The other progression I have used, which again consumes my time is:

DMTC
KING 800
COTI (WITH SLURRY)
COTI
ESCHER

I have 3 different cotis, but since I have an Escher and and 8K, they see little use. I recently bought a nice vintage natural combo from the classifieds here, but seldom use it.

EDIT: Logistics, I don't know what surprises me more; that you see a result from 15 laps on a BBW even with slurry, or that you are able to go from a BBW straight to a Naniwa 12K.

If it is a used razor I will do a TPT and see if it is at all keen. If it is I will try popping hair. If it is not I will try TNT. I'll check it out under the microscope for micro chips and just to see what the bevel looks like. If it is a new one I will see if it will pop hair and if it will strop and shave. If I think it needs to be honed I might use an Escher or a fine coticule or maybe the 12k for starters and if I feel like I need to I can always drop down the ladder and come back up. So it depends.

I always recommend the marker test but to be honest I don't always use it myself. Sometimes it seems like I don't need it. If I do use it I will apply it and walk away for a minute to let it dry. Then I do a few strokes on a flattened hone and check out how the stroke is removing the marker to determine which will work for that particular blade. It may be a rolling x or a 45 degree heel leading or it may be at a 90 to the hone. Once I've figured that out I use lighter fluid on a paper towel to get the marker off now. I don't wait until the razor is honed to do remove it.

If I am starting from a bevel set with a razor with no major chips I will usually start with the 1k naniwa. On Sheffield wedges and/or bad chips I might start at the 600 DMT before the 1k. I do Lynn's prescribed circles followed by X strokes until I have a real good TNT all along the length of the blade. Some 'back and forth' strokes might be thrown in for good measure. Then I do some more X strokes and use the TPT and see if the edge will shave .... not pop ... arm or leg hair.

Here again it depends on the razor and what I am in the mood to do with it. More often than not here lately after setting the bevel I will continue with synthetic hones. Sometimes I just feel like using a coticule and if I do that I used to do slurry on a blue followed by water only on the yellow. Lately I've been skipping the blue altogether and doing a light slurry on the yellow and diluting to pretty much water only and getting a heck of an edge. As good as when I used the blue first and in the same time frame on average. I'll sometimes shave with that edge and other times grab an Escher and do some more. All through this I am every now and again doing TPT and/or testing for hair popping capability.

If I go all synthetic after the bevel set I'll do a pyramid. With the naniwa it will be 3k/5k and with the norton 4/8k. If naniwa, more often that is what I use, I'll go progressive with the 8k and then the 12k. If it is the norton I would go to the Escher to finish. Sometimes with the naniwa I'll still go Escher after the 12k. This is something new for me that I've been experimenting with based on Sham's advice. I really like the edge off of the 12k naniwa and the jury is still out on following with the Escher. The shaves have been good but I'm still figuring out whether they are better than the 12k alone.

One other variable is the Shapton pro series. I have them and sometimes use them 1k, 2k/5k pyramid, 8k, 15k finishing and once in a blue moon 30k ultra finishing but not often. As thebigspendur is often pointing out, some razors seem to "like" some hones better than others. Sometimes I find that if I'm stalled out with one set of stones switching to another will deliver the goods.

Edit; just thinking, before I got the naniwas I would set the bevel on a 1k norton or 1200 DMT and then pyramid on the norton 4/8. Follow that with the Shapton 15k or the coticule depending. Also, above where I talked about light slurry on the coticule, I mean light slurry, not at all like Bart's method of setting bevels with a coticule and thick slurry. Different strokes.

Originally Posted by Utopian

What the heck is the point in dulling the edge on glass prior to setting the bevel?

It's a technique I've learned from Bart, it ensures that the new bevel is just that, a new bevel. By ensuring that the edge does not shave arm hair at all, one can be assured that the new bevel exists in fresh new steel, and won't shave arm hair again until it is perfectly set. Then and only then do I move up in the progression. Bart is much more eloquent than I am, and his explanation makes a tremendous amount of sense. I tried a couple of quick searches but couldn't find a good write-up on it. When I do find it I'll post it for you.

I had a hard time doing it the first time, but it only takes about 2 or 3 sets of 10 half stokes to re-establish the bevel. It's not like you're wrecking the edge, you're just removing it's cutting ability, by drawing it across a glass surface using ONLY the weight of the blade. It leaves no doubt that you've properly established a bevel.

Originally Posted by wdwrx

It's a technique I've learned from Bart, it ensures that the new bevel is just that, a new bevel. By ensuring that the edge does not shave arm hair at all, one can be assured that the new bevel exists in fresh new steel, and won't shave arm hair again until it is perfectly set. Then and only then do I move up in the progression. Bart is much more eloquent than I am, and his explanation makes a tremendous amount of sense. I tried a couple of quick searches but couldn't find a good write-up on it. When I do find it I'll post it for you.

I had a hard time doing it the first time, but it only takes about 2 or 3 sets of 10 half stokes to re-establish the bevel. It's not like you're wrecking the edge, you're just removing it's cutting ability, by drawing it across a glass surface using ONLY the weight of the blade. It leaves no doubt that you've properly established a bevel.

OK, thanks for the explanation. I respect Bart's work but regarding the dulling, I don't agree with it. However, I don't want to hijack the thread so I'll let it go.

Great thread.

First, examining the edge is essential. I keep relearning this. I recently got an NOS Weltmeister that was supposedly shave ready. Maybe ready to shave a dead dog, but not living hair. Did a quick run through on my stones thinking it had to be close -- still bad. Only then did I bother to check. I could feel roughness along the toe third of the blade. Microscope confirmed lots of small chips there. The rest of the blade was just dull.

Anyway, I use a coarse carborundum to work out naked-eye visible chips or make any major corrections -- "pre-bevel" work. I use what Bart calls a "half-stroke" -- just back and forth really. Then a Norton 1K until I get a good TPT and/or it shaves arm hair easily. Once the bevel is established, I usually go to Dilucot on a coti that seems very good for this use. Then on to a much finer Coti starting with a slight slurry and diluting to H20. (20-30 strokes with each dilution). If I'm passing HHT, I may stop. If not, or I'm feeling randy, I usually finish on an Asagi-Kiita. Either my fine Coti or my J-Nat usually give a great shave.

Next 50 on TM linen, 30 on web, 30 on Latigo. and 50 on TM horsehide. Often, this make a big difference in terms of HHT. I know it makes a difference in terms of shave quality.

I use the magic marker before establishing a bevel. It dictates my stroke throughout. 95% of the time I'm doing a rolling-X anyway -- it seems to cover almost all the bases.

But really, there are so many variations dictated by the razor itself that this is just the basic game plan. For instance, with the Weltmeister I did some half-strokes and circles on the 1K just getting the toe right. If I have a blade with spinal scoliosis, I have a narrow coticule for that, and stick to a Unicot strategy.

Always changing, always learning. A year from now I'll be doing something different.

Alright, now I'm in place to weigh in on this one...

My honing is quite an arduous ordeal, but it's starting to get better as I learn more tricks and play with it more.

The tools:
DMT 325C Continuous Diamond Plate (For lapping)
Naniwa 1k (Bevel Setter)
Naniwa 5k (Smoothing/4k equivallent)
Naniwa 8k (Polishing)
Naniwa 12k (Finisher)
Double sided pasted strop, .5 micron CrOx on SRD Webbed fabric, and .5 micron Diamond Spray on Wool Felt
Tony Miller Pure Linen and Red Latigo
SRD Webbed Fabric and Bridle Leather
Tony Miller Smooth Nylon and Horsehide

I have a few other sstropping surfaces, but these are the ones I get the best from consistently for this application.

------------------------------

I always lap every stone before and after use to make sure it's perfectly clean and even (and I generally lap the 1k a few times during the bevel setting process to make sure there's no gritty swarf to cause scratch marks). This does wear away the stones faster than average, but, for now, they don't wear away too fast, and the 1k is cheap enough that I don't mind.

Starting on the 1k, I generally do a series of circle strokes followed by x strokes until the bevel is set. However, occasionally I just do the x strokes... It's more preference than effectiveness at this point. For example: I have beefy fingers, so sometimes the circles are a PITA to do with a 4/8 razor, and I just go with X strokes.
As far as honing goes so far, I've rarely had a blade that laid flat on the stone (I think I've had 3 so far.) so I predominately use rolling strokes... That used to mean nothing but rolling x's until the bevel was set... However, Thanks to Dylan, I've started to figure out the rolling circles... They help quite a bit. So, I start out with pressure and -usually- rolling strokes on the 1k until the bevel is set.

Tests: Shaves armhair, or fine leg hairs, and I'm working on calibrating my TPT and TNT. I use the Magic Marker test to figure out if the razor will lie flat, or if it needs rolls, and -in the latter scenario- use the MMT to figure out what angle/speed to roll the blade with.

On to the 5k. Once the razor is shaving fairly smoothly on fine leg and arm hairs, I move on to 5k. At this grit, I again do a set of circles on each side, followed by 10-20 x strokes. I start on one side of the hone (since I'm usually doing rolling strokes) and do that all with pressure until it shaves armhair well, then I rotate the hone (to fresh stone on the unused side) and do the same pattern WITHOUT pressure... No matter what grit stone I'm using, I always finish up with just the weight of the blade on the hone. (At 1k, I use pressure until it shaves, then do some clean up strokes without pressure, at 5k I use pressure on one side of the hone, then repeat whatever I did with pressure without pressure on the other side. 8k and 12k are absolutely no pressure ever.) After these pressured and pressureless sets, it should be smoothly and cleanly shaving armhair. No tugs.

On to the 8k: I don't do circles on the 8k. I do 10-30 strokes.. If the blade is flat, it gets 10 or 15 complete x strokes, if the blade needs rolling strokes, I do 30 rolling Xs (15 rolling xs, rotate the hone, 15 x's)

12k: The exact same as the 8k. No test for either the 8k or the 12k, at this point the test is in the shave.

After 12k I go to my pasted strop... I use the hanging crox strop for STONELESS touchups in between honings (It's just my method... I'm anal about this stuff). Stone honings (or barber hone touchups) I do 15 laps on the diamond strop. I use either a diamond hanging strop, or a diamond pasted Modular Paddle... Both in Wool Felt. I alternate between them based on mood, not method.

After 15 laps on diamond, I do a strop progression... This is where I really get nutty.

The strops I use, in the order I use them, are TM Linen, SRD Webbed Fabric, TM Nylon, TM Latigo, SRD Bridle, TM Horsehide. All of my strops (except the pasted one) are fabric and leather... Every time I use a fabric, I palm rub the leather, then every time I go to use the leather, I palm rub it again (so that each leather gets palm rubbed twice... once to condition it and rub off any debris or dust, and once prior to use to get it warmed up) (told you, I'm nutty) I start by doing 40 palm rubs on the TM red latigo, then 60 stropping laps on TM linen, followed by 40 palm rubs on SRD Bridle, and 60 laps on SRD Webbed fabric, then 40 palm rubs on TM Horsehide, and 60 laps on TM Nylon. Then 40 more palm rubs on TM Latigo, and 60 strops on latigo, followed by 40 rubs on Bridle, and 60 strops on bridle, then, to finish it off, 50 rubs on Horsehide, and 50 laps on horsehide.

After the 50 laps on horsehide, I do a HHT. If the hairs don't come off clean at every part of the blade I test (generally 11 zones) the razor goes for another 50 laps on the horsehide... I keep up this cycle until the hair JUMPS off of the razor with little to no sound, and no hair "splitting" (Where the hair filets, rather than cutting) Once all 11 zones cut the hair cleanly and quietly, the razor gets a last 50 laps on horsehide and then goes back into it's coffin to await a shave test.

You know... I never really second guessed my "method" before... Now, typing out all of this ridiculous, ritualistic stropping I do... I think I have a problem.

And that problem can only be cured with more strops!

I have for the longest time thought I was OCD,,,

Right up until I read this thread, You guys are way way way out there, in fact compared to you guys I am a simple is what simple does fool...

I look at the edge for problems...


I have this really cool stone in fact it is my second one now (I wore out the first) it is a Norton 1k... I clean the stone before every razor, with about 5 figure 8 laps of a DMT 325... I leave the slurry on there and do 20 heavy pressure circles flip the razor and do 20 on the other side...
Rinse the stone and do 20 medium pressure circles flip the razor and do 20 more...

9/10 hollow grinds are sharp at this time, 6/10 heavy grinds are sharp at this time, if it isn't sharp I do 20 more circles on each side after I access the edge to make sure there are no problems... If I find a problem spot, I push that spot and clear it out... If the razor isn't sharp now there is a problem, and I set that razor aside, and continue with the others... If there are no others, then walk away from the hones for at least 30 minutes, then look again...

I do sets of 5 strokes alternating between heel forward straight down the hone and standard X strokes.. I do 20 laps with these alternating sets, 9/10 razors are popping arm hair now..If not, I do a few more sets...

At this time the razor is set and sharp, really from this point forward nothing really matters much, as it is all just personal preference, and reading the razor type while you set the bevel...

I go a few different directions from here

Naniwa 1-3-5-8-10-12
Shapton 1-2-4-6-8-16-30

About 15-20 laps on each stone, again alternating every 5 laps between heel forward and X strokes... Each stone as I climb gets lighter and lighter pressure... The Shapton 30k is a bit different I do a 3-2-1 set to finish on that one 3 forward 2 back hone and 1 forward...

If I am going natural, I head to the King 1k then Norton 4-8 same system as the other hones...
After the Norton 8k the razor is shave ready, (yes I do check occasionally without stropping) so all I need is to chose a finisher... Each finisher is a bit different but certain things are the same, I always start with 10-15 laps with a light slurry (to "train" the razor to the stone) then progress through to clear water...Lap counts are useless as each stone is different but I bet they are rather low compared to some of what I have read here, I only use 30 or so on my Ch12k to give you an idea, and that is a high one...

Keep in mind all the above is in general, and does not account for problem razors, but all that occurs before the 1k is done anyway....

That is my one rule I never ever break "Until the bevel is perfect I don't move up in grit" I never say "No problem I'll catch it on the next stone" never ever compromise the bevel set and yer fine...

One other thing, if your not checking your honing after the 8k level now and then, without stropping the razor, you are not checking your honing...
Really just try it next time your honing, get to a point that you think your done, and just lather up, and try a shave, right off the hones, you might learn a few things...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I have for the longest time thought I was OCD,,,

Right up until I read this thread, You guys are way way way out there, in fact compared to you guys I am a simple is what simple does fool...

I look at the edge for problems...


I have this really cool stone in fact it is my second one now (I wore out the first) it is a Norton 1k... I clean the stone before every razor, with about 5 figure 8 laps of a DMT 325... I leave the slurry on there and do 20 heavy pressure circles flip the razor and do 20 on the other side...
Rinse the stone and do 20 medium pressure circles flip the razor and do 20 more...

9/10 hollow grinds are sharp at this time, 6/10 heavy grinds are sharp at this time, if it isn't sharp I do 20 more circles on each side after I access the edge to make sure there are no problems... If I find a problem spot, I push that spot and clear it out... If the razor isn't sharp now there is a problem, and I set that razor aside, and continue with the others... If there are no others, then walk away from the hones for at least 30 minutes, then look again...

I do sets of 5 strokes alternating between heel forward straight down the hone and standard X strokes.. I do 20 laps of these alternating sets, 9/10 razors are popping arm hair now..If not, I do a few more sets...

At this time the razor is set and sharp, really from this point forward nothing really matters much, as it is all just personal preference, and reading the razor type while you set the bevel...

I go a few different directions from here

Naniwa 1-3-5-8-10-12
Shapton 1-2-4-6-8-16-30

About 15-20 laps on each stone, again alternating every 5 laps between heel forward and X strokes... Each stone as I climb gets lighter and lighter pressure... The Shapton 30k is a bit different I do a 3-2-1 set to finish on that one 3 forward 2 back hone and 1 forward...

If I am going natural, I head to the King 1k then Norton 4-8 same system as the other hones...
After the Norton 8k the razor is shave ready, (yes I do check occasionally without stropping) so all I need is to chose a finisher... Each finisher is a bit different but certain things are the same, I always start with 10-15 laps with a light slurry then progress through to clear water...Lap counts are useless as each stone is different but I bet they are rather low compared to some of what I have read here, I only use 30 or so on my Ch12k to give you an idea, and that is a high one...

Keep in mind all the above is in general, and does not account for problem razors, but all that occurs before the 1k is done anyway....

That is my one rule I never ever break "Until the bevel is perfect I don't move up in grit" I never say "No problem I'll catch it on the next stone" never ever compromise the bevel set and yer fine...

One other thing, if your not checking your honing after the 8k level now and then, without stropping the razor, you are not checking your honing...
Really just try it next time your honing, get to a point that you think your done, and just lather up, and try a shave, right off the hones, you might learn a few things...

Glen: A few questions...

When you say "By now the razor should be sharp", how do you assess that? Thumb Pad? Armhair shave? Just wondering (This is in reference to your description of work on the 1k)

When you're describing your circles on the 1k, and the three different pressures, it sounds like you're describing a razor that lays nice and flat on the hones, so that the circles reach every part of the bevel area... What do you do on razors that don't lay flat? A rolling X? Rolling Circles?

Also, I may just have to try shaving off of an 8k now... Although I don't know if I have enough practice to keep from seriously butchering my face... Live and learn.

I don't want to quote Glenn's entire post in this thread, but I do want to say that appreciate the simple logic expressed. KISS -- it always seems to work. And........it's always the bevel!

Originally Posted by ShavedZombie

Glen: A few questions...

When you say "By now the razor should be sharp", how do you assess that? Thumb Pad? Armhair shave? Just wondering (This is in reference to your description of work on the 1k)

Try shaving it, No seriously try shaving after you think your 1k work is done,,,the razor is within a few Microns of as sharp as it is every going to get after the 1k...

There are other shavers out there on other forums, that go straight to Dovo Green, Red, Black, pastes from there and shave fine...

When you're describing your circles on the 1k, and the three different pressures, it sounds like you're describing a razor that lays nice and flat on the hones, so that the circles reach every part of the bevel area... What do you do on razors that don't lay flat? A rolling X? Rolling Circles?

You are getting yourself into problems here, you are the control factor, not the razor, not the stone, you have to take charge of the bevel, if it isn't right then fix it, this is what separates a Honemeister from every one else.... The confidence from experience to FIX the bevel...
You really have to be careful with those terms too "rocking and rolling" is great for music, but keep the spine and the edge on the stone, that is the pressure you are rocking/rolling around not the razor...

I haven't used a Rolling /Rocking X in about 3 years...I bet Lynn showed you the 45+ degree heel forward stroke, you had a unique opportunity to sit down with the best and watch him hone, I really hope you were watching...

Also, I may just have to try shaving off of an 8k now... Although I don't know if I have enough practice to keep from seriously butchering my face... Live and learn.

You have a lot of honing to look forward too, you have honed what maybe 20 razors so far??? wait until you have 200 or so under your belt, that is when you really start leaning, and it just keeps going from there, every time you think you have seen everything, one will make you crazy... You never stop learning...