Thread: Post your Progression

Originally Posted by Utopian

What the heck is the point in dulling the edge on glass prior to setting the bevel?

Originally Posted by wdwrx

It's a technique I've learned from Bart, it ensures that the new bevel is just that, a new bevel. By ensuring that the edge does not shave arm hair at all, one can be assured that the new bevel exists in fresh new steel, and won't shave arm hair again until it is perfectly set. Then and only then do I move up in the progression. Bart is much more eloquent than I am, and his explanation makes a tremendous amount of sense. I tried a couple of quick searches but couldn't find a good write-up on it. When I do find it I'll post it for you.

I had a hard time doing it the first time, but it only takes about 2 or 3 sets of 10 half stokes to re-establish the bevel. It's not like you're wrecking the edge, you're just removing it's cutting ability, by drawing it across a glass surface using ONLY the weight of the blade. It leaves no doubt that you've properly established a bevel.

Originally Posted by Utopian

OK, thanks for the explanation. I respect Bart's work but regarding the dulling, I don't agree with it. However, I don't want to hijack the thread so I'll let it go.

As promised: SRP Wiki: Bevel Setting in Theory and Practice: Down Stroke

Of value to me: "dulling the edge just enough to loose all ambiguous readings greatly simplifies the plan of action"

I'm the same as Ben, I hold the hone in my left hand and the razor in my right, and I always tape the spine.

My go to stones are the Naniwa 1/3/8/12k set, and I use a Nakayama Maruichi or Charnley Forest to finish. I have a coticule as well, but it doesnt see much use..!

I do have a set of Shaptons (1/4/8/16k) which I might use on heavier grinds as they seem to be slightly more aggressive than the Naniwas, but I'm still trying to figure out which set of stones to use with which razor.

I check the edge with a 30x loupe before I start to see if there are any small chips. If there are, I start on the 325 DMT doing X strokes only until the chips are gone, then move on to the 1k.

I start on the 1k with circles, and my usual pattern is to do 40 circles a side, then 10 X strokes and do a TNT to see how the edge is coming along, then repeat as needed. If its a smiling blade I do rolling circles and X's, and I usually make my X strokes with the heel leading slightly. I find this works well for me at getting good an even contact with the stone. If the blade is warped I dont do circles, I just stick with X strokes. Once the TNT gives consistent results all the way along the blade, I do a final 10 very light X's and then make sure I can shave arm hair at skin level, then move on to the 3k.

The 3k is much the same as the 1k, I do 40 circles a side then 10 X strokes (and repeat as needed) and I look through the loupe to make sure that the satin look of the 1k bevel has been evenly and fully replaced by the 3k edge, which is more shiny. Once I have the even 3k shine I make sure I can still shave arm hair and move on to the 8k.

I do X strokes only on the 8k, again looking to see that edge become shinier still through the loupe. My test on the 8k is to shave arm hair floating about 1mm above the skin. Once I can do that I move on to the 12k.

X's only again on the 12k, and keeping an eye on things through the loupe. I dont really have a test on the 12k, other than to make sure I can still shave arm hair floating above the skin, and things look good through the loupe. I probably do 20 X's or so, but I just do it on feel TBH. Once the razor feels like its gliding over the stone without the stone polishing, I move on to the finisher.

The finisher is either the Maruichi or the Charnley Forest. On the CF, I do 40 - 50 X strokes and I put a small amount of dish soap on the stone, a tip JimmyHAD gave me that works very well! Thanks Jimmy!

On the Maruichi, I start with a medium slurry and do 25 X strokes, then dilute to a light slurry and do another 25 X's, then dilute to water and do a final 25 X's, then the tape comes off the spine.

I finish by stropping on my SRD 3" black latigo with webbed fabric. I do 30 on the fabric, then 60 strokes on the leather and test shave.

And thats it..!

Well my flights of whimsy tend to get me separated from a regular routine... But in general I use the below progression if nothing is wrong with the blade and the bevel is looking good. Remember I only deal with vintage blades and this rutine is rare I only use tape when fixing a bevel, once fixed the tape comes off and I reset the bevel. This is no so hard to do and saves spine where on the fixing part.

Shapton Glass Stone 1k
Shapton Glass Stone 3k

At this point the bevel is set and polished enough to move to my regular maintenance of J-Nats. There is no tape beyond this point. If I use a Nagura I have been using a Chu nagura from CKTG.

Ohira Tomae (Narrow)
Hideri Namito Koppa
Nakayama Asagi

I'm still playing with how I use these stones and what I write today may very well change tomorrow. Plus I tend to go by what a razor feels like on the stones, ya hard to explain but some razors just don't always feel right on some stones, so I switch things around till it feels right...

I go:

Naniwa 1k
Norton 4k/8k
Naniwa 12k
CrO linen/leather
TM Latigo
SRD Premium I

I tape my spines and start with the marker test to determine what type of stroke(s) to use. Begin with the 1k and go until it pops arm hairs at heel, center, and toe, which is a test I use after each 5 to 10 strokes throughout. I used to then go to an aggressive pyramid on my Norton but just recently started to do all my strokes on the 4k and then move on to the 8k. I'll finish with 10 to 12 light strokes on the 12k and then to my strops. Usually 10 strokes on CrO and then 50/100 on linen and latigo/leather.

I have a little spreadsheet I keep with my razors, how they feel during an actual shave (smooth, tug, dull), and when they were last taken to stones. Helps me stay organized as I like to do my sharpening in batches.

I posted this in my "Disappearing Edge" thread, but it belongs here.

This progression is what I learned from Lynn. I have not had enough experience with problem razors to have deviations to this. I have been using in and getting great results - except when "I" am the problem (not getting the edge suitable to move to the next step).

Most of the time, I skip step 4 and move on to stropping.

Bevel Setting
Stone: 1,000 grit or similar
Sequence: 40 Heavy Pressure Circles – each side
10 Heavy Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until Pocket Knife Sharp
Look for Thin, Even, Straight line along Edge – this is the bevel

Honing
Step: 1
Stone: 5,000 grit or similar
Sequence: 40 Heavy Pressure Circles – each side
40 Light Pressure Circles – each side
5 -10 Light Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until Cuts Arm Hair Readily
Do Thumb Pad Test to Check Edge

Step: 2
Stone: 8,000 grit or similar
Sequence: 5 -10 Light Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until edge passes Thumb Pad Test

Step: 3
Stone: 12,000 grit or similar
Sequence: 5 -10 Light Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until edge passes Thumb Pad Test

Step: 4
Stone: Hard Felt with .5 micron Diamond Spray
Or Balsa Strop with .5 micron Cro-Ox
Or Fabric Strop with .5 micron Cro-Ox
Sequence: 10 Light Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until edge passes Thumb Pad Test

Stropping
Strop: Your Choice
Sequence: 60-80 strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until edge passes Thumb Pad Test

These are additional notes from my session with Lynn.
Honing Notes:
1. Heavy Pressure Circles and Heavy Pressure X Strokes means just that – the table shakes when Lynn does them.
2. Light Pressure X Strokes use just the weight of the blade and enough pressure to keep the blade flat.
3. During the Circle Strokes, keep the blade moving up and down the length of the stone
4. Keep the length of the stone perpendicular to your body.
5. Memorize what the Thumb Pad Test feels like for a Pocket Knife Sharp blade and following each successive sequence.
6. Lift your honing hand elbow to help keep the blade flat on the stone
7. Listen for unevenness in your strokes as the blade travels the stone
8. Watch the water pool carefully as the blade makes strokes on the stone. The pool should be even across the length of the blade and travel with the blade. Then you know you have even pressure and the blade is perfectly flat on the stone.
9. Lynn only uses tape on Damascus and Gold washed spines.

Originally Posted by Alembic

I posted this in my "Disappearing Edge" thread, but it belongs here.

This progression is what I learned from Lynn. I have not had enough experience with problem razors to have deviations to this. I have been using in and getting great results - except when "I" am the problem (not getting the edge suitable to move to the next step).

Most of the time, I skip step 4 and move on to stropping.

Bevel Setting
Stone: 1,000 grit or similar
Sequence: 40 Heavy Pressure Circles – each side
10 Heavy Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until Pocket Knife Sharp
Look for Thin, Even, Straight line along Edge – this is the bevel

Honing
Step: 1
Stone: 5,000 grit or similar
Sequence: 40 Heavy Pressure Circles – each side
40 Light Pressure Circles – each side
5 -10 Light Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until Cuts Arm Hair Readily
Do Thumb Pad Test to Check Edge

Step: 2
Stone: 8,000 grit or similar
Sequence: 5 -10 Light Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until edge passes Thumb Pad Test

Step: 3
Stone: 12,000 grit or similar
Sequence: 5 -10 Light Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until edge passes Thumb Pad Test

Step: 4
Stone: Hard Felt with .5 micron Diamond Spray
Or Balsa Strop with .5 micron Cro-Ox
Or Fabric Strop with .5 micron Cro-Ox
Sequence: 10 Light Pressure X Strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until edge passes Thumb Pad Test

Stropping
Strop: Your Choice
Sequence: 60-80 strokes
Test: Repeat Sequence until edge passes Thumb Pad Test

These are additional notes from my session with Lynn.
Honing Notes:
1. Heavy Pressure Circles and Heavy Pressure X Strokes means just that – the table shakes when Lynn does them.
2. Light Pressure X Strokes use just the weight of the blade and enough pressure to keep the blade flat.
3. During the Circle Strokes, keep the blade moving up and down the length of the stone
4. Keep the length of the stone perpendicular to your body.
5. Memorize what the Thumb Pad Test feels like for a Pocket Knife Sharp blade and following each successive sequence.
6. Lift your honing hand elbow to help keep the blade flat on the stone
7. Listen for unevenness in your strokes as the blade travels the stone
8. Watch the water pool carefully as the blade makes strokes on the stone. The pool should be even across the length of the blade and travel with the blade. Then you know you have even pressure and the blade is perfectly flat on the stone.
9. Lynn only uses tape on Damascus and Gold washed spines.

Great post, Alembic! Thanks... I like the "Honing notes" For the heavy pressure... "The Table shakes when Lynn does them"... First time I watched him do that, I thought he might have had a seizure... I had watched all these videos about light pressure, and then saw him trying to split the hone with the razor... But it sure does work!

Sorry fellas, but this probably as good of an explanation as i will be able to give off the top of my head. *These steps assume a fairly normal edge -- no chips, profile probems etc.*

1. Bevel stetting

I always start with x strokes on my 1200 grit diamond hone. After 5 strokes or so, I'll usually eyeball it to make sure the bevel is shaping up evenly. If the bevel isn't as even as I like, I may alter my stroke a bit (heel leading etc). Next I'll go bit-by-bit in about 10 stroke increments until the edge passes the TNT. After a positive TNT, I give 5-8 more light x-strokes and test on my arm hair. If the edge pops hairs (above the skin) all along the edge , then I will move on... If not, I do sets of 5 lap x-strokes until it will.

*almost every time that I can think of where I have not been able to pop hairs at ~1k at all areas of the edge, I find that the bevel is not fully set when looking under magnification. Just because a blade shaves at one point does not necessarily mean I'm done.*

2. Post bevel refinement

After my bevel is set, I use my BBW/Coticule to refine my edge. I usually start by creating a heavy slurry on the BBW with my natural combo slurry stone. At this point I either do circles, or x-strokes... (just depends on my mood I guess)... but for any given set, I always end with at least 5 light x-strokes. I usually get through about three or four sets of 10 laps total (or equivalent circles+strokes). During this time, the slurry dilutes as I add a drop or two of water between sets.

After the sets with heavy --> diluted slurry, I do 20 or so laps with just water on the BBW.

*between my level 2 sets, I will usually throw in a HHT, a TPT, or a quick shave test by my jaw/sideburns to see how it's coming along. If I need more sets, I add them in*

3. Finishing

After steps 1 and 2, I finish on my coticule with water only. At this point, I'm almost always using x-strokes only. I go by sets of 10 laps, until I am confident in the edge.

*At this point, I test by Shaving, and I really will start shaving by about lap 30 on the coti... the first few sets of 10 I still take breaks to rinse the blade and...well... um.... Oh heck... I don't know, I just take breaks and look things over between sets *

After this point, I strop and shave... If it isn't quite there I do 10 more coticule laps w/water only and strop again on leather. After a good feeling shave (or 1/2 shave), I'll push the edge with 10 strokes on croOx and a bit more stropping on leather.



OK here are some disclaimers/exceptions etc.
Sometimes I do rolling X's and sometimes I start with circles on the 1k... but this is almost always when I have a near wedge with a smile (then I usually do rolling strokes/circles), an edge with chips, or if something just isn't working for me with x-strokes. I have had days where I needed to just walk away from a razor because my stuff wasn't working the way I wanted it to... then for some reason, the next day was fine.


Hope I didn't leave out anything major.

I don't have need for a progression as all my razors are sharp. On occasion to hone a dull razor I work backwards. I start with the 8K and polish the edge up. Then I look closely at the polished edge to read the geometry errors in the spine. If the shine is not equal in width or effect I evaluate why before I pick up any stone.

Then I go to either a 1K or 4K depending on my assessment of the severity of dullness I have to overcome. I use either straight across strokes at a 45 degree angle or an elongated x pattern.

I usually go up quicly, 1K, then 4K, then 8K, then do an arm hair test. I usually repeat this process three or four times. I stop the second I get the appropriate improvement I am looking for. Once I get arm hairs popping I "finish". I adjust the number of strokes for each repetition based on experience.

In finishing I use an 8K or 12K with ultrafine x pattern strokes, which are more verticle than previous strokes. From this point, I usually make an effort to get all the striations in-line. I find this helps improve shave quality about 10% overall. Not really worth the effort probably, but once in a while I notice a little improvement. I work at using negative pressure. That is to actually lift the weight of the razor off the stone when honing. I do this until the razor is cutting 90% of the arm hair without popping sounds. This can be accomplished on any finishing grit stone. I find that 8K and 12K Chinese have similar results, possible indicating that a 12K Chinese isn't really 12K.

I then strop, using a little deflection, which seems to get most razors smooth and sharp.

I then keep the razor going on a Carborundum Barber hone or I apply a touch of graphite to the strop and refresh the edge every few months.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I clean the stone before every razor, with about 5 figure 8 laps of a DMT 325... I leave the slurry on there and do 20 heavy pressure circles flip the razor and do 20 on the other side...
Rinse the stone and do 20 medium pressure circles flip the razor and do 20 more...

9/10 hollow grinds are sharp at this time, 6/10 heavy grinds are sharp at this time, if it isn't sharp I do 20 more circles on each side after I access the edge to make sure there are no problems... If I find a problem spot, I push that spot and clear it out... If the razor isn't sharp now there is a problem, and I set that razor aside, and continue with the others... If there are no others, then walk away from the hones for at least 30 minutes, then look again...

I do sets of 5 strokes alternating between heel forward straight down the hone and standard X strokes.. I do 20 laps with these alternating sets, 9/10 razors are popping arm hair now..If not, I do a few more sets...

Hey, Glen, I just tried this out on a razor (I got lucky, the Kamisori I bullocked my way through has a perfectly straight edge) and it worked fantastically! My fastest bevel set yet... I really liked the starting with the stones slurry. Thanks a ton!

Razor already fairly sharp:

• Visual, TPT, and/or dry shave to test the edge.
  
  • If close, ~3-5 laps on a barber hone. Retest.
  • If not close enough, ink the edge and use DMT EE 8000. Barber hone, rinse and repeat till done.

Dull, or from scratch:

• DMT 325, 600, or 1200. Stop when TNT says done.
• DMT EE 8000. Stop when TPT says done, usually 20 to 30 laps; depending on the previous grit used.
• A barber hone. Stop when it "feels" right. Often less than 8 laps.
• Sometime 100-150 laps on newspaper; depends on the razor.