Thread: The Famous/Infamous Norton 4/8 "JaNorton 2012"

Originally Posted by Martin103

And would you recommend doing that, did you see an
improvement?

Originally Posted by Maxi

I use the damp-stone technique quite regularly when finishing on the 8k side. I like the results I get, and they're consistent, which I feel is really important during honing.

What Maxi said. It really works!



Yet another awesome Globusmen shave this morning

I fell off the JaNorton wagon. I had been using an old KB Extra razor since the last week of December. Today I took the razor to another hone.

The razor has a bit of smile in the blade. I did some circles on the 4k while slowly rocking the razor then some x stroke with a wee bit of pressure than some x strokes with no pressure. On the 8k I some x strokes with no pressure than some slow x strokes nearly using negative pressure (trying have less that the weight of the blade).

If I did not know there were better edges out there, I could live and be happy with the edges off of the 8k norton. I found that with edge of the 8k I could get good two pass shaves. The first pass would leave a little to be desired, especially on the neck, the following pass would get what I missed the first pass.

Two weeks with one razor-thats a long ride for me.

Charlie

I would give a 1-3,1-5 pyramid a quick try and then check results. If still not there try 3-5 on just the 8K. No pressure X stroke on both and then to the strop before testing. both these are good to try if you are close, no matter what method you chose to get there.

Have fun.

Originally Posted by georgephillips

Surprisingly I got my very first self honed close shave last night after following Lynn's circle method, and then the pyramid of 4K/8K. I was really happy with the results of the shave as in after 3 passes I was close to BBS in most areas except my neck. The actual feel of the razor though still tugged a bit and parts of the third pass were approaching painful. (oddly the thayers splash down didnt sting like i expected it to.) My question is this, would others here in order to get smoother results take both razors back to the 8k and strop more all at once, or would taking the razor to the 8k for a few laps before each shave progressively sharpen and smooth it out a little?


**as a side note this thread and experiment influenced me to pick up a red imp and a EDACO which hopefully will be here in the next few days, so i can have a broader range of razor blade types and sizes to experience honing with.

6th Shave

Razor : ~11/16" Dubl Duck SatinEdge - full hollow

Method :

For the first honing, I did 10 sweeping X-strokes on the N4k with a "little" bit of pressure, not much.

I then went to the N8k with just water. Using a little pressure, I did 10 sweeping X-strokes again, and did 10 more sweeping X-strokes with the OPPOSITE hand. I rinsed the hone and razor again, and did 10 X-strokes with my left-hand, then 10 X-strokes with my right hand with JUST the weight of the blade...no pressure. I then did 3 sweeping X-strokes with the LEFT, then 3 with the right, followed by 1 sweeping X-stroke (LEFT), and then 1 RIGHT. And then did the 1 sweeping X-stroke with each hand again (LEFT then RIGHT.)

I then stropped 40x on my homemade denim cloth strop, followed by 40x on my homemade cowhide leather strop.

Shave : I did my usual 2 pass shave (WTG, XTG), following the same prep procedures I always do. I think I've hit my limit really. There was no discomfort when applying witch hazel after my shave as I always do. This shave was just as good as shave #5 with my W&B. That full hollow edge just wiped away the hair. I don't think there's any point in me trying again with this razor...I know we were gonna stick with 2 razors for JaNorton, but if it's ok, I am going to try the same procedure on a few of my other razors to see if they will hone up just as well. I'm starting to believe there may be something to switching hands and getting those cross-hatching marks on the edge. If anyone would like to try one normal, then try that procedure, to check it out that would be cool! Prove I'm not just crazy! LOL

*EDIT* And just so you guys know for reference, my facial hair is REALLY coarse, so it takes a pretty darn good edge to give me a nice close, comfortable shave.

And on a side note...DARN you Glen! Now if I don't play with my Coti's to get a better edge, I'm gonna be stuck honing on Nortons! AKK!

Ok, went back to the hones with my TI Le Canadien & W&B 5/8 Bow Razor today.

Le Canadien
I started with a moderate slurry, 20 circles up and 20 back, moderate pressure. Then 5 X strokes, moderate pressure. It passed TNT so I gave it 5 more moderate X-strokes, but it wasn't doing a very good job on arm hair, so I rinsed the stone, raised a bit of a lighter slurry, refreshed the tape, then did another 20 up, 20 down with moderate pressure. Now it was starting to get there. Next step were about 10 X light pressure strokes with light slurry on the 4k. I refreshed the tape on the spine at this point in time. It was starting to dial in, so I rinsed the stone, did another 10 X strokes with just water, no pressure on 4k. Then I did another 10 X Strokes with no pressure and moved to a pyramid:

25/5 20/5 15/5 10/5 7/5 5/5 5/7 3/10 1/10

Now it was popping arm hair with ease, so I moved to the 8k for finishing. With fresh tape, I did 10 no pressure X strokes with water, then rinsed the stone again, wiped away the water with my finger and did 10 slow X strokes with the damp stone. Stropping is SRD Latigo 50/100 then 100 on my episaacs 'roo.

W&B 5/8 Bow

Pretty much the same routine as above, with similar results, though I needed less circles.

The shave test tonight was with the W&B, which didn't come through with flying colours. That said, it was better than last time, so I think, with a conservative pyramid, I might be able to bring it in line. More stone action tomorrow!

Full writeup of tonight's shave is up here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...tml#post904966

These are some thoughts that i am having about pyramid honing. I wouldn't have time to prove these in January and maybe they have been thought of before so feel free to tell me I am wrong etc.

Here is an example of a process used. 25/5 20/5 15/5 10/5 7/5 5/5 5/7 3/10 1/10 and then go on to the 8k. People aren't testing in between the pattern like I understand they should. I think if the edge tests good at 5/5 then go on to the 8k to finish.

I am thinking more of the fellow honing his own and trying to sneak up on the edge. If it is close, I submit to do the second half of the pyramid. For example a 5/10 test and if you think it is good do your 20 damp on the 8k. [Or whatever trips your trigger!] Strop and shave the next morning. If it just isn't there yet do a 3/10, test and do 20 damp. Closer yet do 1/10 and test, then 20 damp. Strop and shave the next morning.

Most of us are not professionals. We are learning and are playing with our own tools. It might take you 2 weeks to dial it in but the nest time it will be shorter and we are not shipping out to someone else " the perfect edge."

Tim

Okay, so I've been using my Everkeen, and Carbomatic, for a week or so now, with one trip back to the 8K giving both 10 very light that strokes with just water, and then strapping 25 on the linen, and 50 on the leather, and so far so good I could live with this if I had to and be happy. The one question I have is the pyramid, even though I have used it and it works, I'm not sure I know why, as now I use each stone until I feel I have gotten the most out of it, and then move on to the next level and this seems to be working very well for me. If you are on the 8K, what good does it do the edge to bring it back to the 4K? As was said earlier in this post, as soon as you use the 4K you lose the edge, so why doesn't that apply when using the pyramid? As I've said when I first started out I did use the standard pyramid as I found it on the wiki, and it works very well but I really don't know why. Can anyone explain this?
Thank you
Griz

This is my take of this. I think it gets back to the 4k edge. The 8k polishes the 4k. If the 4k isn't right it might take a stroke or two to get it. But to test it you should polish on the 8k. The closer you get with the 4k you still need the 8k to polish it. The big point I think is missing is the testing in between. Test and polish the 4k. if it isn't quit right take a couple more on the 4k then polish on the 8k.

Tim

When I do the pyramids, there is quite a bit of testing involved. Most of the testing occurs with my thumb pad, some of the testing occurs with my arm hair, and the final testing occurs with my facial hair. Now, that being said, on a razor that is NOT shaving and has just had a bevel reset, 1 aggressive pyramid IME will rarely put you in the shave test category. Quite often you'll be doing a conservative pyramid or two conservative pyramids following your aggressive.

Secondly, if you have a razor that is tugging quite badly you probably won't start at a 25/5 pyramid, but closer to the 10/5 and go on up. Practice helps with that assessment. It it's just started to tug, you'll probably do a conservative pyramid with a 1/5,3/5 sort of thing.

In terms of why it works, I think it provides a way to eliminate 4k scratches from the bevel without doing damage on the 8k side. When I was first learning on my Norton's one of the trickiest things was to determine when the edge "felt" ready on a stone, successively that is. The pyramid helps eliminate some of that guesswork at the start. It also helps to polish out those big 4k scratches when you don't quite know how many laps to do on the 8k to make that happen in the first place.

I think the pyramid works well with two razors. It gives you an opportunity to produce a shave ready edge fairly quickly (not time-wise, but learning-wise) on one razor and test for sharpness and comfort, while you work on the other razor using a successive grit honing method and a loupe to view your scratch pattern.

I mentioned in an earlier post that something neat to do is take out your 4k (just for fun), and do 3 or 4 circles on it. Now switch over to your 8k and do 3-4 straight laps on it. Did the scratch pattern begin to change? How many more 8k laps does it take for you to eliminate the 3-4 circles scratches on the 4k side? Also....if you want to see how it works another way: Find an old junker that has massive amounts of honewear. Run it on any stone without tape, and you'll see your scratch pattern in the flat honewear areas. Use a finer grit stone to see if you can change that pattern, and how long it takes to eliminate it.

Great points by all. At my stage of honing, I am still just trying to figure things out, so getting a feel for the stones, seeing what type of scratches I get when I do different things (looking through my x15 loupe can be quite interesting), getting an even bevel and getting a razor that is able to shave comfortably. There are many of you for whom this thread is a revisiting, or a return to something more simplistic, but for me it's my maiden voyage. I very much appreciate the knowledge in here, even though a lot of it goes *whoosh* right over my head at this point in time.