Thread: The Filarmonica

you may be right sirand they could have all been made ther...but this is not the case...it was about the Filarmonicas.

Dear Robin,
I did not intend to offend you and your belives and i am sorry if i did. Mabe you got upset reading it as I got upset reading your post...witch also lacks solid evidence...they did the no14 blanks ok...but there are so many no 14 and not all are the same on the face...not all of them are good let alone great.

It is just strange that blades of that diffrent a quality can emerge form the same place be it whole manufacture or just the "best solinge grind"....
...and a brand like that loved and hunted by so many to have a twist in the storry we get to hear only now....after so many years people searched the info out...it seems rater unlikely....
But again you could be right...you ould get the pleasure of a Fila in a sub 50$ blade ....but belive me...people would have noticed!!!!...there are thousands of us trying out new blades...
I am sorry i did not provide any hard evidence about this but we both know that "hard evidence" is hard to find these days.
I'm in this for the fun and i am not spending my time to bookmark and link every solid piece of info i come across...
This is just what i belive based on my experience...
I don't want to start a flame so i kindly ask forgiveness if i offended any.
...You tend get agressive when someone tells you your favorite razors you spent a heap of cash on over the years are not actualy what you think and they are the same as no name ones a tenth of the price...
Cheers!

Good morning, and thank you for your kind words. Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

I did not intend to offend you and your belives and i am sorry if i did. Mabe you got upset reading it as I got upset reading your post...witch also lacks solid evidence...they did the no14 blanks ok...but there are so many no 14 and not all are the same on the face...not all of them are good let alone great.

#14 blades look pretty much exactly alike.

Which is why over in the German forums (full of people from the area with relatives who actually worked in Solingen at the right time, and who also speak the vernacular) this has been common knowledge for several years. Just search the web for "14er Klingen", the information is all there. I just corroborated it.

It should be noted, too, that there are blades with a #14 stamped on them around which were not ground from the #14 blanks. I have, for example, seen a few 5/8 and 6/8 French razors with that stamp. The ones in the picture above, though, were all ground from Herkenrath #14 blanks. Which, incidentally, were typically ground into 7/8 razors, but could be ground into 8/8 ones, too, only the size was even less popular than 7/8. So they may not be exactly alike, but the basic features are completely uniform.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

It is just strange that blades of that diffrent a quality can emerge form the same place be it whole manufacture or just the "best solinge grind"....

You mean vintage Solingen razors? They made millions. Just like millions of cars are being made today. You have a Ford Pinto at one end of the scale, and a Bentley at the other. There are some not-so-fabulous vintage Solingen razors at one end, and something like a Camel Rider at the other. This is just normal, given that prices varied like those of cars. However, if you think about the size of the industry, it also seems natural that a great level of uniformity was achieved at a fairly early stage, and personally, I seem to be missing a great many of the so called finer nuances. Then again, I use cut-throat razors because they work, not because I have a fetish.

Seriously, a friend of mine works at a University where they have these (whatever they are called in English) analytical tools for metal. Chop up some of your favourite blades, and certainly those about which you are in doubt, and I could have them analysed properly. I bet you you will see very few variations from the middle of the fifties onwards.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

...and a brand like that loved and hunted by so many to have a twist in the storry we get to hear only now....after so many years people searched the info out...it seems rater unlikely.... But again you could be right...you ould get the pleasure of a Fila in a sub 50$ blade ....but belive me...people would have noticed!!!!...there are thousands of us trying out new blades...

Shaving with a cut-throat has quite a few variables. I have received noticeably different performances from the same razor depending on the hone used. Moreover, I have seen similar variances depending on the preparation and shaving products used with the same razor off the same hone, which is why I keep telling beginners to invest in high quality shaving products rather than some brand name.

Just for the record, if you think your argument through properly, ie noticeable variances appearing across the same line of mass produced (and Filarmonica razors obviously were mass produced, otherwise there would not be so many around still), this would mean that the more people try them, the more heterogeneous their verdicts would be. But they are not. To me, it seems far more likely that the variances that are reported are down to hones and shaving products used.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

I am sorry i did not provide any hard evidence about this but we both know that "hard evidence" is hard to find these days.

It is indeed. You can ask the companies and craftsmen which are still there (a scant few), and why would they lie? They have nothing to gain from badmouthing their own industry, have they? So when several people who were actually there when it happened tell me very much the exact same story, I tend to believe them more than vendors and collectors. Because both of the latter actually do have something to lose.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

...You tend get agressive when someone tells you your favorite razors you spent a heap of cash on over the years are not actualy what you think and they are the same as no name ones a tenth of the price...

Oh, you mean like Heljestrand and Hellberg? Well, yes, that may be a little sad for the investor. Believe you me, I was a bit miffed when they these old craftsmen shared their opinions about Puma razors. I have a few. I really like them. I do not want to believe they were considered [censored], but upon closer inspection, I do not find them quite as great as I once did.

I my previous career here, I used to pester Lynn and others with the one question which probably every novice (and I consider myself a novice after roughly a decade dealing with this hobby still) would love to see answered, "what is the best razor", and the answer was, "well this brand and that one, and this one too, oh, and don't forget that one over there." There is no holy grail, and I personally believe that there certainly is no one single brand that outperforms everything else. If there were, people would have noticed. Moreover, it would have reached world domination fairly quickly back then, but not one brand ever did. We are, and we often forget that, talking about the vintage equivalent of hair-dryers or washing machines. Except for souvenir razors and seven day sets, we are looking at household items which were bought because they either worked, or they did not. Go back a few years in SPR's archive before that famous shot Max posted, and read about what people thought about Filarmonica razors back then. "Solid performer, decent price" was the general verdict. The raving reviews started afterwards, and prices skyrocketed. I know a guy who about 18 months back came across a few boxes full of NOS Filarmonicas. He is selling them piecemeal to keep prices up, and that is a very nice way to get a lot of money. Which is great for him, but also tells you a bit about the market, and why prices have been a bit off for the last five years.

Then again, what is wrong with having a high quality razor even if you overpaid? I have exactly one Filarmonica left which I refuse to sell because I overpaid (by my standards, ie something like $125), and I refuse to rip off some innocent buyer by selling it at the current going rate. However, I would still recommend getting one, if you can get it for less than $150, simply because they are rock solid razors, and because finding a Solingen #14 for a sensible price can be a bit hard. One per year on average so far, as I said. But it can be done.

And the same story continues, this was told years ago and has just continued on..

Has somebody finally found a scrap of paper to prove the "One Blank made in Solingen story"

A box
an Ad

Maybe a Mis-stamped razor ???

We have all seen Dovo Ducks and Puma Ducks
we have seen JPM Fillarmonicas too

I would just love to see some actual tangible proof Anyone ??? A piece of tangible proof ???

Been asking that same question for about 7 years now I would have hoped that somebody somewhere would have a piece of the puzzle by now, just show me and I will be a believer


Edit: Just occurred to me isn't there a Patent on this or something like it, we have seen Patents/Etc: of other razors and even special grinds, has anyone looked down that route ?

I believe some of the early Filarmonica's were made in Germany they even have a very stylized Germanic Eagle stamped on the box, and these early Filarmonica's did not carry the country of origin on the opposite side of the tang like the later Filarmonica's which had Spain stamped on the tang, I have a early Filarmonica 14 Especial and I've always thought these blades were ground in Germany even the scales are bakelite, and those Filarmonica's are over 60 or 70 years old.

Originally Posted by ovidiucotiga

...and a brand like that loved and hunted by so many to have a twist in the storry we get to hear only now....after so many years people searched the info out...it seems rater unlikely....

[...]

...You tend get agressive when someone tells you your favorite razors you spent a heap of cash on over the years are not actualy what you think and they are the same as no name ones a tenth of the price...
Cheers!

I think you got to the heart of the problem right there. When you have a lot invested in something - emotionally, financially or both - it is hard to consider that what you believe to be true may very well not be. This sometimes results in a refusal to change ones perspective.

Take, for instance, Dubl Ducks. Irrespective of their quality, they are said to be quite "rare and hard to procure, in good condition". Though when looking ONLY at ebay auctions, it becomes painfully clear that they are not anything even remotely close to rare, but more often than not suffer from severe forms of deterioration, often caused by celluloid rot, meaning: they came in inferior scales. But even the ones in good (or restored state) are quite numerous. Yet, inexplicably, they sell at prices that, to me, do not make sense. I cannot explain this particular case in any other way than hype and wishful thinking or self-fulfilling profecies.

Back to the #14 discussion: even though, so far, there is no piece of paper that says "This and this many #13 blanks, this and this many #14 blanks for Filarmónica, to be produced and delivered by Hugo Herkenrath Edelstahlschmiede by this and this date", a verbal confirmation by this same company is really as close as it gets, and

Originally Posted by RobinK

You can ask the companies and craftsmen which are still there (a scant few), and why would they lie? They have nothing to gain from badmouthing their own industry, have they?

makes a lot of sense to me.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I would just love to see some actual tangible proof Anyone ??? A piece of tangible proof ???

Why not contact the forge at Herkenrath and ask them if they have any such material in their archives?

Originally Posted by RobinK

[…] There is no holy grail, and I personally believe that there certainly is no one single brand that outperforms everything else. If there were, people would have noticed. […] [We] often forget that, talking about the vintage equivalent of hair-dryers or washing machines. Except for souvenir razors and seven day sets, we are looking at household items which were bought because they either worked, or they did not.
[...]
I have seen similar variances depending on the preparation and shaving products used with the same razor off the same hone, which is why I keep telling beginners to invest in high quality shaving products rather than some brand name.

Even more: I have, more than once, had strikingly different shaving results and experiences while using exactly the same set-up. There are so many variables; differences in steel and grind (read: similar grinds between different razors) are likely rather minor players, as long as you have a keen edge that effortless removes stubble. Especially for beginners, this is not something to be focussing on.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Take, for instance, Dubl Ducks. Irrespective of their quality, they are said to be quite "rare and hard to procure, in good condition". Though when looking ONLY at ebay auctions, it becomes painfully clear that they are not anything even remotely close to rare, but more often than not suffer from severe forms of deterioration, often caused by celluloid rot, meaning: they came in inferior scales. But even the ones in good (or restored state) are quite numerous. Yet, inexplicably, they sell at prices that, to me, do not make sense. I cannot explain this particular case in any other way than hype and wishful thinking or self-fulfilling profecies.

Dubl Ducks are probably the single most produced export razor ever made. Calling them rare is calling a VW Beetle rare. Even the allegedly very rare Grim Reaper pops up on eBay at least twice a year. Now, when did you last see a Sahara Rider or a Camel Rider? Right. Those are actually rare, and always have been (little wonder given their history). But Filarmonicas are a dime a dozen, too. Right now, there are dozens on eBay (if you include local sites). They are easier to find than most if not all Revisor rarities.

Originally Posted by Pithor

Why not contact the forge at Herkenrath and ask them if they have any such material in their archives?

Because they do not have any. Knowing only too well from past experience what the first reaction towards first hand information from people who were actually there and made the razors others rave about would be, I asked. It would have been nice, though, albeit in a rather obsessive-compulsive way. Because, well, how shall I phrase it...? Let us just say that there is basically no evidence for anything in straight razor shaving. So far, no one has even managed to prove (scientifically, not through fumbling around) which effect certain hones have. And just when you think you can at least trust product labels, somebody proves you cannot.

And that is not even mentioning the possibility to scientifically analyse vintage steels and use proper tools to measure grinds and widths of razors. It would not be hard to do, though, but strangely enough, "hard evidence" is only ever asked for when a popular myth is busted.

That said, if the same logic were applied in reverse, I could claim that all Dubl Ducks were made by alien slave labourers on 67P and tell everybody who said that an American import and distribution company existed that while this might well be true, it does not prove anything. Because there are no papers proving that they were not made in Ghana. Evidence of absence, anyone?

Because they do not have any. Knowing only too well from past experience what the first reaction towards first hand information from people who were actually there and made the razors others rave about would be, I asked. It would have been nice, though, albeit in a rather obsessive-compulsive way. Because, well, how shall I phrase it...? Let us just say that there is basically no evidence for anything in straight razor shaving. So far, no one has even managed to prove (scientifically, not through fumbling around) which effect certain hones have. And just when you think you can at least trust product labels, somebody proves you cannot.

And that is not even mentioning the possibility to scientifically analyse vintage steels and use proper tools to measure grinds and widths of razors. It would not be hard to do, though, but strangely enough, "hard evidence" is only ever asked for when a popular myth is busted.

That said, if the same logic were applied in reverse, I could claim that all Dubl Ducks were made by alien slave labourers on 67P and tell everybody who said that an American import and distribution company existed that while this might well be true, it does not prove anything. Because there are no papers proving that they were not made in Ghana. Evidence of absence, anyone?[/QUOTE]


RobinK,

I have read with great interest your posts in this thread. I appreciate that work you have done and the contacts you have made with former Herkenrath craftsmen. Your work may eventually solve the mystery behind the #14s.

I respectfully disagree with your general positions regarding evidence, however. That's quite a blanket statement that there is no evidence even about how certain hones effect razors. If you do a quick forum/internet search, you will notice that people have used electron microscopes to analyze the structure of natural hones and many of these same people have analyzed how edges look on an electron microscope after being subjected to certain hones. While this research might not meet scientific journal standards, it would be hard to argue that just tests do not provide some iota of proof of how respective hones impact razors.

Further, I disagree that there is no proof of anything -- related to archives and sales records, orders -- in the straight razor world. If you search the forum, some members have managed to make contact with original manufacturers who have pulled requested information from archives. People have been able to find archival information to provide dates of production, for instance. With regards to Herkenrath, Filarmonica, and the #14s, there certainly must have existed sales orders, manufacturing records, designs, mock-ups, correspondence, etc., that would have proven were the #14s were forged and ground. The big question for us razor enthusiasts, then, is whether any of these documents have been preserved or retained? However, you may be right that no such records have been preserved.

Finally, I think it is completely fair for you, as the proponent of wide-sweeping claim about #14 razors and multiple brands, to bear the burden of proof. The fact that we cannot prove your claim as false does not make it true. While the statements/assertions that you attribute to Herkenrath craftsmen and knowledgeable Solingen straight razor shavers does support your claims, this evidence is all second-hand and hearsay. In that regard, I believe the evidence you've presented supports your claim as an intriguing possibility, but you need more to prove your claim as conclusive.

Originally Posted by Bordee

Your work may eventually solve the mystery behind the #14s.

It was solved years ago. Whether you believe wild guesswork or first (not, as you accidentally said, second) hand information from people who were there and actually made the products in question remains your prerogative.

Originally Posted by Bordee

I respectfully disagree with your general positions regarding evidence, however. That's quite a blanket statement that there is no evidence even about how certain hones effect razors.

I never made such a statement. I said, "So far, no one has even managed to prove (scientifically, not through fumbling around) which effect certain hones have," and I dare you to prove me wrong (tangible proof preferred).

Originally Posted by Bordee

If you do a quick forum/internet search, you will notice that people have used electron microscopes to analyze the structure of natural hones and many of these same people have analyzed how edges look on an electron microscope after being subjected to certain hones. While this research might not meet scientific journal standards, it would be hard to argue that just tests do not provide some iota of proof of how respective hones impact razors.

Ah, maybe a short introduction seems in order: I have been here before, albeit under a different name. I am back by popular demand (ie blame it on Lynn). These so called analyses prove absolutely nothing, and the shots of edges even less. However, the last person to tell their authors that in a fashion as blunt as mine mysteriously disappeared from this forum.

Originally Posted by Bordee

Further, I disagree that there is no proof of anything -- related to archives and sales records, orders -- in the straight razor world.

I find that a bit odd. Your disagreeing, I mean. Because I never said there was not proof of archives, sales records, and so on. Unless the technical specs have changed dramatically, I could make the hard drive here overlow with scans of them. Both from Solingen and from Eskilstuna.

Originally Posted by Bordee

However, you may be right that no such records have been preserved.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to Solingen? Do you have an idea how big the average house in Solingen is, and how much room bills and so forth from the 1920s onward would take up? And that is not even mentioning the redevelopment of large parts of Solingen by the RAF and USAF a few decades ago.

Originally Posted by Bordee

Finally, I think it is completely fair for you, as the proponent of wide-sweeping claim about #14 razors and multiple brands, to bear the burden of proof. The fact that we cannot prove your claim as false does not make it true.

While you may think that this is completely fair (and it may be, if you think so), it is also completely illogical. There are dozens of #14 blades around. Incidentally, they all look basically the same. More than that, they look eerily similar to any Filarmonica #14 ever found. Add to that the fact that the same goes true for the Nos 13-10, and the plot begins to thicken. Now, let us a for moment ignore the silly idea that anyone will find "tangible proof" after 50 years or more. Let us focus instead on a single, simple question. When we find the exact same types of blades in Germany and Spain, and if we find three makers in Spain, but dozens in Germany, would anyone in their right mind consider it likely that they were imported from Spain and distributed in Germany? Spain, a country not known to have produced a single cut-throat razor blank in its entire history? A country which at the time in question was under fascist rule, about as poor as Costa Rica or Blackwater AZ are today, and equally technologically advanced?

And, quite honestly, I could not be bothered with any "tangible proof" anyhow. My job here is not to proselytise. If anything, my job is to go where no one has gone before (ie Solingen), get the facts, and convey them to those who have kept an open mind. As I said, all you need to do is go there and talk to the people who were actually around. It really is as simple as that.

Hi robin, i have to say that you are a master debater , yes i do mean that you are good at arguing your point, and in fact all the anecdotal evidence that you have gathered would certainly support your claim, and i have no reason to say that you are incorrect.
However saying that all of your anecdotal research is more valid than photographic evidence (in the case of how hones affect edges) is a bit of a claim.

As to your ascertation that various members have "mysteriously disapeared from this forum", can you provide some evidence?