Thread: The Filarmonica

An interesting debate this.
What Robin has wrote is plausible, but as I have said over on TSR, could just be a man sick of shaving forums inflating the prices of of these brands and so set out to undermine them (just thinking out aloud Robin!) Because let's face it, without us the value of Filarmonicas, Ducks, Puma's etc wouldn't be anything...no?

What nags at me though is the fact that Spain had a booming iron & steel industry during the existance of Filarmonica and they are renouned for producing good steel just as the other countries that produced razors have, Britain, Germany, USA & Sweeden.
So would it not have made very good economical sense for companies in Spainto manufacture their own razors? I mean the men there did shave
There is also Filarmonicas awards for exporting to over 60 countries, would they really of won awards for exporting a product they didn't manufacture? (entirely)

Also the Franco reign came long after the existance of the Filarmonica brand, so I'm not quite sure where he comes into this?

It's all a little 'wishy washy to me!

Originally Posted by jaycey

What Robin has wrote is plausible, but as I have said over on TSR, could just be a man sick of shaving forums inflating the prices of of these brands and so set out to undermine them (just thinking out aloud Robin!) Because let's face it, without us the value of Filarmonicas, Ducks, Puma's etc wouldn't be anything...no?

Interesting, indeed. This is the second attempt at character assassination in this thread. Is that the best you guys can come up with? For the record, I have no interest whatsoever in the prices of vintage razors, especially not mass produced ones. I have nothing to gain from their prices falling (or rising). I have offered information which goes beyond mere guesswork or hearsay. If you choose to discard that information, that is perfectly fine by me (albeit illogical).

Originally Posted by jaycey

What nags at me though is the fact that Spain had a booming iron & steel industry during the existance of Filarmonica and they are renouned for producing good steel just as the other countries that produced razors have, Britain, Germany, USA & Sweeden. So would it not have made very good economical sense for companies in Spainto manufacture their own razors? I mean the men there did shave

I think you may want to revisit the Solingen industry. It blew Sheffield's out of the water in less than 20 years. And setting up an entire production chain for razors when at the same time the highest quality available was being produced a few hundred kilometres away... I might have been tempting, but it would hardly have worked. Profit margins for razors were slim back then (as they are now, except for so called custom razors).

Originally Posted by jaycey

Also the Franco reign came long after the existance of the Filarmonica brand, so I'm not quite sure where he comes into this?

Neither am I. You may want to reconsider your question, taking into account the economics of fascism and the fact that Filarmonica operated under fascist rule for 35 years.

Originally Posted by jaycey

It's all a little 'wishy washy to me!

It is, is it not? May I suggest that we stick to facts or original research instead of making attempts at character assassination and trying to derail the discussion by making up claims and putting words into people's mouths? I think that would help keep this discussion civil, and focused on the case in point.

Thank you.

Have fun,
Robin

Originally Posted by RobinK

Interesting, indeed. This is the second attempt at character assassination in this thread. Is that the best you guys can come up with? For the record, I have no interest whatsoever in the prices of vintage razors, especially not mass produced ones. I have nothing to gain from their prices falling (or rising). I have offered information which goes beyond mere guesswork or hearsay. If you choose to discard that information, that is perfectly fine by me (albeit illogical).

Don't be so paranoid Robin, no assassinations going on here.
You have presented a different form of information to what has been presented already. No more, no less, just information, no facts.

Originally Posted by RobinK

I think you may want to revisit the Solingen industry. It blew Sheffield's out of the water in less than 20 years. And setting up an entire production chain for razors when at the same time the highest quality available was being produced a few hundred kilometres away... I might have been tempting, but it would hardly have worked. Profit margins for razors were slim back then (as they are now, except for so called custom razors).

But wasn't Sheffield & Solingen producing blades during 1800's (and before that) & 1900's spanning at least 100 years? Infact sword production go's back to the middle ages...no? I think your 20 year blow out is a bit exagerated.

Originally Posted by RobinK

Neither am I. You may want to reconsider your question, taking into account the economics of fascism and the fact that Filarmonica operated under fascist rule for 35 years.

So? I don't understand what you are implying here, they were doing ok before, during and after Franco, things went down hill when JMP died.

Originally Posted by RobinK

It is, is it not? May I suggest that we stick to facts or original research instead of making attempts at character assassination and trying to derail the discussion by making up claims and putting words into people's mouths? I think that would help keep this discussion civil, and focused on the case in point.

Again, just wind your neck out out a bit and leave you paranoia out of it. Let's stick to facts, you have produced none, just a story.
My "wish washy" comment was based on the lack of real hard facts of the origins of the Filarmonica blades, that's all.
Thread derailment...that happened long before I got here, infact I would like to see these comments removed from this thread and placed into a more suitable thread.

My facts:
Shaving forums have inflated the prices of these razors.
Spain had a booming steel industry just like Britain, USA, Germany & Sweden. All manufactured razors.
Filarmonica were about before, during and after Franco, he nor he dictatorship has any baring on this dicussion that I can make out.

Now, let's hear/see your facts regarding your claims.

Originally Posted by jaycey

You have presented a different form of information to what has been presented already. No more, no less, just information, no facts.

Which different form of information would that be, then?

Originally Posted by jaycey

But wasn't Sheffield & Solingen producing blades during 1800's (and before that) & 1900's spanning at least 100 years? Infact sword production go's back to the middle ages...no? I think your 20 year blow out is a bit exagerated.

Maybe you should try digesting information piecemeal to avoid overload. Yes, the Solingen/Sheffield competition was earlier in time. But it left Solingen as the sole contender worth mentioning, and its production processes lean and efficient, including, but not limited to, souring of raw materials, and steel production.

Furthermore, your claim "Spain had a booming iron & steel industry during the existance of Filarmonica and they are renouned for producing good steel" is completely unfounded. In fact, "Spain’s role in world iron and steel production from the last quarter of the nineteenth century through the early twentieth century was primarily that of an iron ore supplier.[Source: Technological Change and Location in Spanish Modern Iron and Steel, 1882-1936, http://goo.gl/LqB9Ym] I suggest that you read up on this matter further before making any further untenable claims.

Originally Posted by jaycey

I don't understand what you are implying here, they were doing ok before, during and after Franco, things went down hill when JMP died.

Is that a fact? If so, based on what data and information?

Originally Posted by jaycey

Again, just wind your neck out out a bit and leave you paranoia out of it. Let's stick to facts, you have produced none, just a story.

And here we go again. I would suggest that you stop making this personal.

Originally Posted by jaycey

My facts: [...]Spain had a booming steel industry just like Britain, USA, Germany & Sweden. All manufactured razors.

I put the (provably) wrong part into italics. And yes, all four countries produced razors. One issue being contended here, however, is that Spain did not produce blanks, at least not in quantities worth mentioning.

Originally Posted by jaycey

Filarmonica were about before, during and after Franco, he nor he dictatorship has any baring on this dicussion that I can make out.

A claim has been made that Spain outsourced razor production to cut costs. Again, please take a moment to familiarise yourself with the economics of fascism (while you are at it, you will see that Spain's economic situation was grim during the entire time in which Filarmonica were operational). Therefore, the claim is illogical, and counterfactual.

Originally Posted by jaycey

Now, let's hear/see your facts regarding your claims.

Camaraderie might score you points with people averse to research, but it will not strengthen the validity of the claims you make in the slightest.

And just for the record, and because misrepresenting what I seems to become a habit for you, I did not make any claims. I relayed information which I obtained from actual sources, and corroborated this information.

Unless there is hard evidence that can be produced to prove the point, it's all just so much talk. I've read a bunch of words, haven't seen one piece of documentation. So speaking of Razor's...how about Occam's Razor, you know the simplest explanation is usually the correct answer?

Proposition #1 - the Spanish made razors, they had a steel industry, one of the razor's was called a Filarmonica made by a guy named Jose.

Proposition #2 - they were all made by Germans either in Spain, or shipped to Spain. Why? Some old guys said so.

What is the most likely explanation? They were made in Spain by a guy named Jose. What's my proof? There are ten's of thousands of razors and packages that say so.

Does this make this the absolute correct explanation? I don't know.

Does it make it the most likely explanation?

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, and any other reasonable person, it does, barring documented evidence to say otherwise.

Until I see some documented evidence, I'm not going to go around like some conspiracy theorist telling people strange stories...if I recall a motto from one of the American States, I believe it's phrased this way. Forgive this Canadian if I get it wrong:

"I'm from Missouri, show me???"

44 pages? Really? Not even winter yet so cabin fever can't be the excuse.

Might find this thread interesting: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...-alliance.html


And this one also: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...filly-not.html

I am still confused!

Originally Posted by Martin103

Might find this thread interesting: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...-alliance.html


And this one also: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...filly-not.html

Yep the second one is a really good read and actually has some info more supportive of the Solingen connection that is pretty compelling but hard to follow, because of the language barriers

Originally Posted by Phrank

Unless there is hard evidence that can be produced to prove the point, it's all just so much talk. I've read a bunch of words, haven't seen one piece of documentation. So speaking of Razor's...how about Occam's Razor, you know the simplest explanation is usually the correct answer?

Proposition #1 - the Spanish made razors, they had a steel industry, one of the razor's was called a Filarmonica made by a guy named Jose.

Proposition #2 - they were all made by Germans either in Spain, or shipped to Spain. Why? Some old guys said so.

What is the most likely explanation? They were made in Spain by a guy named Jose. What's my proof? There are ten's of thousands of razors and packages that say so.

Does this make this the absolute correct explanation? I don't know.

Does it make it the most likely explanation?

Yes, as far as I'm concerned, and any other reasonable person, it does, barring documented evidence to say otherwise.

Until I see some documented evidence, I'm not going to go around like some conspiracy theorist telling people strange stories...if I recall a motto from one of the American States, I believe it's phrased this way. Forgive this Canadian if I get it wrong:

"I'm from Missouri, show me???"

Greetings, Frank,

I recognize that forums can be a difficult place to know who is trustworthy. SRP do a great job here by trying to identify members who are knowledgeable and helpful. Based on your post total, 4k in a smidge over a year (impressive!), I assume you are familiar with these (and most of the things on this site). I once had the privilege of serving as a mentor here, but life got in the way and I rarely post anymore (young kids, career, growing a beard and those things shifted my interests for a bit). As Robin mentioned, he was a moderator here at one time, and I'm sure you have seen that these discussions/disagreements have been going on for years. It's fair to say no one has produced concrete evidence for either point of view. However, "some conspiracy theorist telling strange stories" is hardly what RobinK is. He's the guy who is responsible for over 90% of the SRP wiki (or at least from the time that I became less active), and he's also one of the driving forces behind the mentor program here (please correct me if I'm wrong, Lynn, Glen, Robin, whoever). Furthermore, he's one of very few of the members here who have visited the small Kotten where master craftsmen developed their world renowned reputations and spoke with those involved in the history... Could he be wrong? Sure. But, he's relaying information from people who should know.

So, now we have another thread posted here with another link connecting Filarmonica and German sources for their steel. Nothing firm, but his reasoning, and his sources are quite sound. I think SRP is best when people are not making these things personal. I have been guilty of it in the past, and it is not all that pleasant. If I know my friend, and I do, I am sure he's going to be finding out if there's any way to document the stories the craftsmen told him. If not, it's not a huge deal, but this is not some wild conspiracy. It is a retelling of verbal history...

Have a great day.

Good to see all of you guys. I will try to check in a little more regularly. As Lynn always says, Have Fun!