Thread: Tamahagane with other kanji???

As Mainaman hinted the other side of the razor has the hard steel.

Just FYI Tamahagane does not always show a wavy grain pattern. There is also nashiji-hada which looks like this Iwasaki western style razor. It is a result of more folding into a homogenous mix.
Nashi is a pear so the name refers to a pear like surface.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

There are several things going on that are immediately visible.
1. It is folded and welded material. No it cannot be said to be tamahagane. That is the raw smelted material. To build up a blade is orogshigane. But "-gane" means steel.
2. There is a scratch pattern from 1100 to 0500 and one from 0200 to 0800 or so. Those are scratches.
3. There is a wave pattern running from 0900 to 0300 that represents the folded material.
4. There could be cracks in the steel. One of the short odd lines runs across all the other patterns from west to east or vice versa.
4a. There are a couple of the longer ones that could be inclusions/flaws between welds/folds. If they are they are non fatal flaws because they don't cross the edge. They aren't pretty but not fatal.

Very nice response, thank you!

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Yes in fact I have seen it on German and American razors too, Folded steel is a process, it is not always Tamahagane
Basically many steels can be folded, but that doesn't make them Tamahagane

Sorta like all Eschers are Thuringens, but not all Thuringens are Eschers

Hehe! Indeed, I get your point! Thanks, am I right to presume it is rather rare?

Originally Posted by onimaru55

As Mainaman hinted the other side of the razor has the hard steel.

Just FYI Tamahagane does not always show a wavy grain pattern. There is also nashiji-hada which looks like this Iwasaki western style razor. It is a result of more folding into a homogenous mix.
Nashi is a pear so the name refers to a pear like surface.

Nice! Didn't know that either! Great responses, thanks!

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

There are several things going on that are immediately visible.
1. It is folded and welded material. No it cannot be said to be tamahagane. That is the raw smelted material. To build up a blade is orogshigane. But "-gane" means steel.
2. There is a scratch pattern from 1100 to 0500 and one from 0200 to 0800 or so. Those are scratches.
3. There is a wave pattern running from 0900 to 0300 that represents the folded material.
4. There could be cracks in the steel. One of the short odd lines runs across all the other patterns from west to east or vice versa.
4a. There are a couple of the longer ones that could be inclusions/flaws between welds/folds. If they are they are non fatal flaws because they don't cross the edge. They aren't pretty but not fatal.

Could it be that the Oroshigane is original from "recycled" sword material?
It would make sense to me that from such basis, they must fold steel when recycling,
or is there a reason for folding plain iron/steel?

Originally Posted by Fikira

Could it be that the Oroshigane is original from "recycled" sword material?
It would make sense to me that from such basis, they must fold steel when recycling,
or is there a reason for folding plain iron/steel?

Oroshigane is the selection of tamahagane from various smelts, all gauged by eye and experience, hammered into coin sized pieces, laid up on a steel plate, then welded into a billet that will become a sword. Sometimes more folding and welding are involved but it depends on the school the smith learned in. Yes, recycled material from broken swords or other tools of high quality steel have been included in billets. No good material will ever be wasted (which is a worldwide rule of smithing).

The folding is not magical. A piece of raw tamahagane comes with slags, bits of charcoal, sand, clay and voids from gas bubbles. All that has to be cleaned away from the steel and the voids closed. The cycling at welding temperatures allows the carbon content of the materials to equalize throughout the bar. The folding merely homogenizes the steel into a bar that is more useful than the raw material.

Sometimes the patterns are appreciated by those with an eye to see them. Smiths have been playing with these techniques for a couple thousand years. It's not exclusive to Japan, but the Japanese smiths exercise some of the finest work consistently.

Man I love when Mike talks steel, I learn something everytime

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Oroshigane is the selection of tamahagane from various smelts, all gauged by eye and experience, hammered into coin sized pieces, laid up on a steel plate, then welded into a billet that will become a sword. Sometimes more folding and welding are involved but it depends on the school the smith learned in. Yes, recycled material from broken swords or other tools of high quality steel have been included in billets. No good material will ever be wasted (which is a worldwide rule of smithing).

The folding is not magical. A piece of raw tamahagane comes with slags, bits of charcoal, sand, clay and voids from gas bubbles. All that has to be cleaned away from the steel and the voids closed. The cycling at welding temperatures allows the carbon content of the materials to equalize throughout the bar. The folding merely homogenizes the steel into a bar that is more useful than the raw material.

Sometimes the patterns are appreciated by those with an eye to see them. Smiths have been playing with these techniques for a couple thousand years. It's not exclusive to Japan, but the Japanese smiths exercise some of the finest work consistently.

Amazing words... Beautiful, thank you!

So, is it possible that this kami is made from previous Tamahagane swords and thus is about the same quality?
Or is there a great possibility it is made of "regular" steel, that is folded? How can you know?

Is it a wright assumption that, if a smith made this kami of recycled Tamahagane, he may not stamp it with a Tamahagane kanji?

Originally Posted by Fikira

...is it possible that this kami is made from previous Tamahagane swords and thus is about the same quality?

...is there a great possibility it is made of "regular" steel, that is folded? How can you know?

...if a smith made this kami of recycled Tamahagane, he may not stamp it with a Tamahagane kanji?

Without being able to talk to the smith who made the bar of steel, nothing is certain. Asking the person who made the steel would be the most direct and accurate means to answer your question.

We could subject the blade to destructive testing, say spectrographic analysis, and could probably discriminate between a very clean simple steel like tamahagane and a modern alloy, but some modern alloys are very clean and simple too.

It is possible that this blade is pattern welded regular steels. See above answers.

As Glen indicated, this type of steel has its own value. I can't imagine going to the trouble of using a fairly rare material and then not taking credit for it. Even pattern welded material should be more valuable than say a mono-steel. You have to recover the cost of the materials, the cost of the labor involved (as these are custom hand processes for the most part), some of the aesthetic involved in creating the work and the smith's reputation for working in an above-average material. But, the smith could have died and the blade wasn't stamped. Given the possibility that there are flaws in the blade, he may not have wanted it marked as his work and suffered some damage to his reputation. It could have been a master's student's work and not good enough for a signature. As I suggested though, the flaws I see are not fatal and while they would not be considered perfect work, you still have an acceptably adequate working tool to use too. Value laden objects are subject to too many variables.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Without being able to talk to the smith who made the bar of steel, nothing is certain. Asking the person who made the steel would be the most direct and accurate means to answer your question.

We could subject the blade to destructive testing, say spectrographic analysis, and could probably discriminate between a very clean simple steel like tamahagane and a modern alloy, but some modern alloys are very clean and simple too.

It is possible that this blade is pattern welded regular steels. See above answers.

As Glen indicated, this type of steel has its own value. I can't imagine going to the trouble of using a fairly rare material and then not taking credit for it. Even pattern welded material should be more valuable than say a mono-steel. You have to recover the cost of the materials, the cost of the labor involved (as these are custom hand processes for the most part), some of the aesthetic involved in creating the work and the smith's reputation for working in an above-average material. But, the smith could have died and the blade wasn't stamped. Given the possibility that there are flaws in the blade, he may not have wanted it marked as his work and suffered some damage to his reputation. It could have been a master's student's work and not good enough for a signature. As I suggested though, the flaws I see are not fatal and while they would not be considered perfect work, you still have an acceptably adequate working tool to use too. Value laden objects are subject to too many variables.

Once more a very respectable, worthily answer, thank you very much, I'm very grateful
Deepest respect!