Thread: Tamahagane with other kanji???

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Oz, what are your thoughts about the possibility that this may have simply been only partially ground to completion and not a "restore." Once taken to the wheel to grind and those flaws show up in the middle and it got tossed onto the recycle pile, only to slip out of the shop and wind up in the hands of the public? it would explain the half finished way it looks to my eye. You fellows who look at these a lot more than I will have a better idea though.

I'd say that's a distinct possibility Mike yet I'm surprised that even a partial grind would curve like that. Atypical of what I would expect from a Japanese forge. You see plenty like that on eBay & I've always just thought they were worn or abused. If the top of the Ura had that much wear at the start you could say it was from a lot of honing otherwise yep hard to say for sure.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'd say that's a distinct possibility Mike yet I'm surprised that even a partial grind would curve like that. Atypical of what I would expect from a Japanese forge. You see plenty like that on eBay & I've always just thought they were worn or abused. If the top of the Ura had that much wear at the start you could say it was from a lot of honing otherwise yep hard to say for sure.

Sorry for the premature pics at the start, couldn't wait!
Here ar some pics how I got it, hope it helps a bit

Originally Posted by onimaru55

...I'm surprised that even a partial grind would curve like that. ...

With those new pictures, the omote grind looks straight. From this grinder's perspective, I wonder that grinding the Ura exposed the flaws we can see and the next step would have been to see if it could be ground down to find out if there was a bottom to the flaw and the blade could be saved, so to speak. I think they found a few more flaws and that was the end of the effort. It also looks as if the main effort of the grinding wheel hits at an angle (not parallel to the edge) and that would explain some of the curved Ura too. More material was removed in the center trying to get past the flaws.

It's still a good piece of steel and thinking like the maker, probably more work than it's worth to try to recover from the mistakes. But that has not stopped enterprising salvagers before.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I could see myself apprenticing to a swordsmith in a different life. The life of a polisher otoh... it never ceases to amaze me that people would choose that particular craft.

Give me a call in your next life, I'll polish for you!

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

With those new pictures, the omote grind looks straight. From this grinder's perspective, I wonder that grinding the Ura exposed the flaws we can see and the next step would have been to see if it could be ground down to find out if there was a bottom to the flaw and the blade could be saved, so to speak. I think they found a few more flaws and that was the end of the effort. It also looks as if the main effort of the grinding wheel hits at an angle (not parallel to the edge) and that would explain some of the curved Ura too. More material was removed in the center trying to get past the flaws.

It's still a good piece of steel and thinking like the maker, probably more work than it's worth to try to recover from the mistakes. But that has not stopped enterprising salvagers before.

Thanks!
I took more pics and it seems like the entire ura is flat, but on the omote side it's a bit weird I think, the top is curved, the edge is curved when place on a really flat hone (my lovely Shoubudani), and the curved line is almost flat (at the front side a tiny bit curved, the rest is straight) when it is on the hone???
Hope the pics are more clear than my words...

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

With those new pictures, the omote grind looks straight. From this grinder's perspective, I wonder that grinding the Ura exposed the flaws we can see and the next step would have been to see if it could be ground down to find out if there was a bottom to the flaw and the blade could be saved, so to speak. I think they found a few more flaws and that was the end of the effort. It also looks as if the main effort of the grinding wheel hits at an angle (not parallel to the edge) and that would explain some of the curved Ura too. More material was removed in the center trying to get past the flaws.

It's still a good piece of steel and thinking like the maker, probably more work than it's worth to try to recover from the mistakes. But that has not stopped enterprising salvagers before.

I see where you're coming from Mike, which is a more in depth look than I was seeing. Very interesting how many planes are involved but I was simply referring to the contact point where the hone touches on the omote near the spine. Wasn't sure if shinogi was the right terminology ? but that is what I saw as being a difficulty in achieving a straight edge on the hones or at least creating some uneven looking bevels.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I see where you're coming from Mike, which is a more in depth look than I was seeing. Very interesting how many planes are involved but I was simply referring to the contact point where the hone touches on the omote near the spine. Wasn't sure if shinogi was the right terminology ? but that is what I saw as being a difficulty in achieving a straight edge on the hones or at least creating some uneven looking bevels.

Shinogi as in the curved ridge between the polished "fold-waves-area" and the rough carved spine? It seems to be a strange combination I guess?? The curved ridge, which is mostly flat though when laying on the hone...
If you see the last pic, there is a broad shiny polished flat area (already from the start (no much grinding left?)), but the
heel doesn't make contact (isn't polished), it bends in towards the hone, which is a contradiction I think, because the edge at the heel doesn't make contact with the hone, I had to do rolling-X moves (still the area seems not to be able to get polished, got a sharp edge though), the same story, in a lesser way, at the point...

Originally Posted by Fikira

Shinogi as in the curved ridge between the polished "fold-waves-area" and the rough carved spine? It seems to be a strange combination I guess?? The curved ridge, which is mostly flat though when laying on the hone...
If you see the last pic, there is a broad shiny polished flat area (already from the start (no much grinding left?)), but the
heel doesn't make contact (isn't polished), it bends in towards the hone, which is a contradiction I think, because the edge at the heel doesn't make contact with the hone, I had to do rolling-X moves (still the area seems not to be able to get polished, got a sharp edge though), the same story, in a lesser way, at the point...

Yes that's the one. As with western razors where the edge will follow the spine these are meant to be straight on kamisori. I haven't seen any smiling kamisori newly made.
The grind also needs to be true. If the blade is warped it can be straightened because of the soft iron content unlike western razors being hard all over, tho straightening a 2" kamisori would be challenging.

Straightening a 2" piece of laminated steel with differential hardness would be challenging, especially considering that the part near the edge is very thin already. Perhaps you could do it with a wooden hammer and gentle tapping, but because of the shape, you cannot help but transfer a lot of force to the edge, which may not like that kind of abuse.

I'd say that you now have a working, smiling kamisori. If you start hammering, it 'might' turn into a straight kamisori, or it may turn into either a completely crooked kamisori, or 2 pieces of kamisori.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Yes that's the one. As with western razors where the edge will follow the spine these are meant to be straight on kamisori. I haven't seen any smiling kamisori newly made.
The grind also needs to be true. If the blade is warped it can be straightened because of the soft iron content unlike western razors being hard all over, tho straightening a 2" kamisori would be challenging.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Straightening a 2" piece of laminated steel with differential hardness would be challenging, especially considering that the part near the edge is very thin already. Perhaps you could do it with a wooden hammer and gentle tapping, but because of the shape, you cannot help but transfer a lot of force to the edge, which may not like that kind of abuse.

I'd say that you now have a working, smiling kamisori. If you start hammering, it 'might' turn into a straight kamisori, or it may turn into either a completely crooked kamisori, or 2 pieces of kamisori.

Again new knowledge for me, excellent! Thanks! Considering the risk, and already having a sharp edge, I'll accept its flaws at the moment and cherish it as a special one

It became a nice threat though!