Thread: Tamahagane with other kanji???

Just for the record, some photo's at the "end" of the honing progression, not what I would like it to be, but it seems to be a "smiling" kami,so it wasn't easy to hone some areas, got an overall HHT 4 though, so at the moment I'm satisfied

(The pic below keeps turning upside down for some reason...)

How do I put this politely ? The geometry of this razor is wrong. Sorry.

The ridge should actually be a straight line which in turn would give you a straight edge.
Someone has 'restored' this razor not taking that into consideration but congrats on prolonging it's life & getting it shaving.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

How do I put this politely ? The geometry of this razor is wrong. Sorry.

The ridge should actually be a straight line which in turn would give you a straight edge.
Someone has 'restored' this razor not taking that into consideration but congrats on prolonging it's life & getting it shaving.

No problem at all! It's the only one in my kami collection with such a geometry and I thought it wasn't wright, now I'm sure!
Maybe it is restored or maybe the possibility, given by Mike Blue, of (maybe) being a master's student's work that wasn't good enough, is becoming more possible?

Thanks for your compliment!

Kindest regards

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

I may be mistaken but I believe Tamahgane is a type of steel,not a technique.

Yes, but...

Yes, It it a type of steel. But in its raw form, it is unuasable crap. It has to be forgewelded and folded several times before it becomes good steel. The folding process always goes with the tamahagane. The folding itself can leave folding scars, which are basically lengthwise inclusions. And the folding also leaves a pattern of faint lines also running lengthwise.

EDIT: I notice that Mike already wrote the same, thing, only more comprehensive

Originally Posted by Bruno

Yes, but...

Yes, It it a type of steel. But in its raw form, it is unuasable crap. It has to be forgewelded and folded several times before it becomes good steel. The folding process always goes with the tamahagane. The folding itself can leave folding scars, which are basically lengthwise inclusions. And the folding also leaves a pattern of faint lines also running lengthwise.

EDIT: I notice that Mike already wrote the same, thing, only more comprehensive

So, tamahagane is always folded BUT
folded isn't always tamahagane

Originally Posted by Fikira

So, tamahagane is always folded BUT
folded isn't always tamahagane

Yes. The folding process is necessary to drive out slag and impurities. That is also why raw tamahagane has to have such a high carbon content. Prolonged exposure to welding temperatures means that carbon will disappear from the steel. It starts out at 1.4% carbon and ends up at 0.6 to 0.7% when the folding is done (8 to 11 foldings max iirc).

This also shows why the 'folding dozens / hundreds of times' is complete BS. After folding 20 times, all carbon would have disappeared, and you'd be hammering a piece of iron without carbon and the internal structure of mashed potato.

Btw on the topic of folding: modern pattern welded steels are also folded a number of times. Carbon content drops as well, but to a lesser degree because that is usually done with modern power hammers or hydraulic presses. Traditional tamahagane folding is done by 2 apprentices with sledge hammers, and this takes a good amount of time at welding heat.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Btw on the topic of folding: modern pattern welded steels are also folded a number of times. Carbon content drops as well, but to a lesser degree because that is usually done with modern power hammers or hydraulic presses. Traditional tamahagane folding is done by 2 apprentices with sledge hammers, and this takes a good amount of time at welding heat.

As we get to see it on the docudrama TV shows, it seems traditional. Their tradition limits them to a charcoal fire and performing the process as they were handed down. The calculation to drop the carbon content over the life of the billet to blade is just as deliberate and well thought out as if I were making a PW billet in my LP gas fire with a hydraulic press. Most Japanese smith shops have a power hammer because the hammer doesn't eat. Apprentices have to be fed and clothed and get tired and frankly, there are few interested people in most of the more difficult crafts these days. Everytime visitors from the east come to American shops, they have been adept at the use of power tools without hindrance. It's not that they don't know how, but their tradition is what sets the limits on how it can be done.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

How do I put this politely ? The geometry of this razor is wrong. Sorry. The ridge should actually be a straight line which in turn would give you a straight edge. Someone has 'restored' this razor not taking that into consideration but congrats on prolonging it's life & getting it shaving.

Oz, what are your thoughts about the possibility that this may have simply been only partially ground to completion and not a "restore." Once taken to the wheel to grind and those flaws show up in the middle and it got tossed onto the recycle pile, only to slip out of the shop and wind up in the hands of the public? it would explain the half finished way it looks to my eye. You fellows who look at these a lot more than I will have a better idea though.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

Most Japanese smith shops have a power hammer because the hammer doesn't eat. Apprentices have to be fed and clothed and get tired and frankly, there are few interested people in most of the more difficult crafts these days. Everytime visitors from the east come to American shops, they have been adept at the use of power tools without hindrance. It's not that they don't know how, but their tradition is what sets the limits on how it can be done.

I could see myself apprenticing to a swordsmith in a different life. The life of a polisher otoh... it never ceases to amaze me that people would choose that particular craft.