Thread: Vintage Puma or new Revisor?

The funny thing is, though, a "Puma" might just as well be a Dovo, Henckels or something else entirely, down to minuscule Kotten. The big companies made OEM razors whenever there were free capacities. And no, I did not make that up, I got it from one of the few remaining retired craftsmen in Solingen who worked for several of these companies.

Originally Posted by RobinK

The funny thing is, though, a "Puma" might just as well be a Dovo, Henckels or something else entirely, down to minuscule Kotten.

This is a bit misleading. It may be the same craftsmen making the razors, but they aren't the same razors.

As far as I can tell, the components and designs are different. Puma blades often boast "Made in Germany from Best Puma-Steel", which I take to mean that they are not made from the same blanks as every other maker. Perhaps the craftsman you know could provide more detail as to the degree of similarity among the various manufacturers' components/designs.

If you can provide evidence that there exists a Dovo, Henckels, or other razor that is identical to a Puma razor (other than superficial markings), then I'd concede that "a Puma might as well be a Dovo, Henckels or something else". Otherwise, your claim seems to be an exaggeration.

Originally Posted by vileru

This is a bit misleading. It may be the same craftsmen making the razors, but they aren't the same razors.

Are they not? A Henckels blank ground by a Puma employee would be different? Or vice versa?

Originally Posted by vileru

As far as I can tell, the components and designs are different. Puma blades often boast "Made in Germany from Best Puma-Steel", which I take to mean that they are not made from the same blanks as every other maker. Perhaps the craftsman you know could provide more detail as to the degree of similarity among the various manufacturers' components/designs.

Yes. I just called him. They used bog standard blanks, made by Herckenrath.

Originally Posted by vileru

If you can provide evidence that there exists a Dovo, Henckels, or other razor that is identical to a Puma razor (other than superficial markings), then I'd concede that "a Puma might as well be a Dovo, Henckels or something else". Otherwise, your claim seems to be an exaggeration.

If you can provide evidence to the contrary, I shall happily admit offering "a bit misleading" information. In the meantime, it is the word of a retired craftsman against conjecture. And I know whom I personally would believe.

Originally Posted by RobinK

Are they not? A Henckels blank ground by a Puma employee would be different? Or vice versa?

It would be if they deliberately ground them differently (e.g. if each brand had its own "signature" grinding specifications). I was working under the assumption that, while the razors were produced by the same craftsmen, the components and manufacturing techniques were different.

Since I lack the resources you have access to, unfortunately conjecture and simple observations are the only sources of evidence I have. Fortunately, I can confirm/disconfirm my hypotheses thanks to you and others who have access to evidence that I don't.

Putting aside my suspicion that the blades are different, there are other differences, such as pin construction (e.g. Pumas tend to have three pins, whereas Dovo's typically have two—although, three-pin models do exist). Other potential differences could be the shape/weight of scales, rubber grips (do the other brands use these?), finishing (blade shoulders, grinds, etc.), QA processes, and so on.

Given that your source claims that the blades are the same, I'd be curious as to the background of the "Made in Germany from Best Puma-Steel" markings. Is it just a marketing ploy? Did the other manufacturers protest against the misleading marketing (after all, it seems to suggest that "Puma-Steel" is somehow distinguished from competitors' steels)? If not, then why not?

I'm sure many Solingen manufacturers used similar components, design elements, and personnel, but you're claiming that the entire manufacturing process (besides superficial elements) was identical among various Solingen makers. Is this what your contact told you?

Given your familiarity with various craftsmen, knowledge about razors, and high native-level proficiency in German, I'm sure your evidence is more reliable than anything I have access to. Therefore I can understand if I seem a bit irksome from your standpoint. However, I'm just carrying out my rational due diligence, so I hope you don't mind walking me through the evidence. Plus, personally I just want to know more about razor history/manufacturing, and I'm sure others here would be delighted to learn more as well.

Originally Posted by vileru

Given that your source claims that the blades are the same, I'd be curious as to the background of the "Made in Germany from Best Puma-Steel" markings. Is it just a marketing ploy? Did the other manufacturers protest against the misleading marketing (after all, it seems to suggest that "Puma-Steel" is somehow distinguished from competitors' steels)? If not, then why not?

I am not answering for Robin but this is my view of stampings and etchings proclaiming things like "Best Puma Steel", "For Heavy Beards" and so on. It is just so much advertising hype and while it may suggest something special it is not.

There is nothing stopping a Puma from calling, say, 01 tool steel "Best Puma Steel". It could also be taken to intimate that the steel they, Puma, are using is what they consider the best available for the purpose of making razors and not some special super duper alloy made exclusively for Puma.

Bob

But Bob! What about that 'Pumaster' Steel?

It's all a marketing ploy. And you guys know it. Just like those fabled Filarmonica razors made in Solingen.

But this is an exercise in futility. This forum has "Threads 118,156 Posts 1,590,133 Members 45,065". Still, basic knowledge is still not accessible. Such as the "production process" of Solingen razors until the 1960s. So why bother? You guys keep on collecting your Pumi's, and Filli's. If you find that they deliver "superb shaves", that's great. Seriously.

Originally Posted by sharptonn

But Bob! What about that 'Pumaster' Steel?

That is right up there with Ford's "military grade aluminum" . Surely, Ford can't be using aluminum only the military has access to. Surely, the military uses various alloys the are suitable for different specific jobs. Like a lot of advertising it is "nur mist und luft" . Yea, old and jaded I are.

Bob

Blanks may very well be the same but what about the value-add? Grinds? Heat treating? Polishing?

I deal with this all of the time with Asian mfg. One casting source and many 'finishers'. Quality is different from finisher to finisher.

Originally Posted by kelbro

Blanks may very well be the same but what about the value-add? Grinds? Heat treating? Polishing?

An excellent question. Would you care to elaborate on the heat treating issue, please? Thank you.