Thread: French Point & Irish Point: Any Difference?

Originally Posted by gugi

Well, you know I'm trying to stay on the good side of the man, so that he would autograph me a copy of the rumored upcoming book on a CD format "How to make friends and influence shaving communities since 1991".

I have missed your earlier reference to the notes from Bill Hulkin, that's pretty cool - wish he'd sketched some of the 'others' too.

Ah - I thought as much! He's promised me a copy too...

Ken Hawley's life is pretty interesting, he collected tools from sheffield for over fifty years and in 1998 he received a grant from the lotteries commission that resulted in a permanent home for the tools and his notes.

A good read at a reasonable price is provided by another very interesting fellow, Geoffrey Tweedale in his book "Stan Shaw - Master Cutler." Stan is (I think he is still alive - he was 82 in 2008) one of the last working "little mesters" and the book documents his apprentice days at Ibbersons through to him working alone in his little toolshop, carrying out every single stage of production from forging to setting-in. He still uses tools and techniques from Victorian times.

Tweedale of course has published many other books dealing with edged instruments - some of which are hideously expensive!

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by ZethLent

I am pretty sure Bill takes no credit for coining Irish Point. I seem to remember reading him saying that from what he has read, that shape was an Irish point and that was what he was going to call it, not French.

I'm with Zethlent. Ellis never coined the word "Irish". In fact, he's pretty adament about it if you check out this page of his web site. Apparently he doesn't care too much for having words put in his mouth.

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

Some food for thought from Germany, 1939: Digitale Bibliothek - Münchener Digitalisierungszentrum - aptly named 'The Beauty of Form on the Straight Razor'. No French, Irish or otherwise outlandish points. Just square, rounded square, round, and oblique (with rounded tip). So there.

Dear custom makers, please do not miss page 29 where you can learn which combinations of point, spine, and tang were considered ugly.

Regards,
Robin

I think this is still valid information. I had never heard of a Spanish point until Herr Wacker started producing them and they are very popular. I always called a "French" point an oblique point but realized that the terminology had changed and people didn't understand what an oblique point was until I told them it is a French point. I think spike point is valid for a square point that comes to a sharp abrupt 90 degree angle on the point though.

It is unfortunate but there is a lot of newly coined terminology floating around right now. The one that gets under my skin is when someone discribes a razor ground from a blank as a "regrind".

Just to correct any misconceptions; the wedge ground razors being sold right now are technically termed "near wedge" ground. The true wedge razors of the mid 1800s becomes your worst nightmare to hone since the whole of each side of the wedge must have metal taken off to get a keen edge.

Originally Posted by John Crowley

It is unfortunate but there is a lot of newly coined terminology floating around right now. The one that gets under my skin is when someone discribes a razor ground from a blank as a "regrind".

Just to correct any misconceptions; the wedge ground razors being sold right now are technically termed "near wedge" ground. The true wedge razors of the mid 1800s becomes your worst nightmare to hone since the whole of each side of the wedge must have metal taken off to get a keen edge.

Good points, both, John! I have a couple genuinely ancient wedge razors... I have given up on ever getting them sharp, because I'm just not that patient! They make a W&B 'wedge' look like a cakewalk!

Originally Posted by Otis

I'm with Zethlent. Ellis never coined the word "Irish". In fact, he's pretty adament about it if you check out this page of his web site. Apparently he doesn't care too much for having words put in his mouth.

Personally, I do believe Gugi and I bug the man... Oh well perhaps his entire "point" is a bit "unbalanced"

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Check out "point styles" in the SRP Wiki here.

I notice that the Polish and Bulgarian points are missing.

And that the Norwegian/Viking "Battleaxe" grind has not even been mentioned. While not shocked, I am a bit saddened that the precursor to the razor has been so blithely ignored.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Personally, I do believe Gugi and I bug the man... Oh well perhaps his entire "point" is a bit "unbalanced"

Are you saying that you just believe in gugi, or is it that you believe gugi when he declares that Ellis fabricated the word "Irish" for one of his custom razors, thus taking credit for the "coined" term himself? That is my impression of gugi's statement anyway. Maybe he meant something different than what was written down. I'll delay judgement on that.

What do you bug gugi about, by the way? I thought you two were friends. What "point" was unbalanced? I'm missing the joke somehow. Or was that just to get even for the unkind words about you on Ellis' site as well?

Originally Posted by Otis

Are you saying that you just believe in gugi, or is it that you believe gugi when he declares that Ellis fabricated the word "Irish" for one of his custom razors, thus taking credit for the "coined" term himself? That is my impression of gugi's statement anyway. Maybe he meant something different than what was written down. I'll delay judgement on that.

What do you bug gugi about, by the way? I thought you two were friends. What "point" was unbalanced? I'm missing the joke somehow. Or was that just to get even for the unkind words about you on Ellis' site as well?

His statement seems pretty clear to me...............

Originally Posted by Otis

Are you saying that you just believe in gugi, or is it that you believe gugi when he declares that Ellis fabricated the word "Irish" for one of his custom razors, thus taking credit for the "coined" term himself? That is my impression of gugi's statement anyway. Maybe he meant something different than what was written down. I'll delay judgement on that.

What do you bug gugi about, by the way? I thought you two were friends. What "point" was unbalanced? I'm missing the joke somehow. Or was that just to get even for the unkind words about you on Ellis' site as well?

Instead of addressing this here you have e-mail