Thread: My Mastro Livi razor, at last: a wonderful life experience!

Hi Antonello, very informative video there. Very interesting that Mastro Livi likes to use a 3000 grit to set the bevel after grinding. A true Master Out of curiosity, if the blade in the video wasn't the one that the client sent in who's was it that had the chips?

Originally Posted by jodypress

Hi Antonello, very informative video there. Very interesting that Mastro Livi likes to use a 3000 grit to set the bevel after grinding. A true Master Out of curiosity, if the blade in the video wasn't the one that the client sent in who's was it that had the chips?

Hello Jody, I am glad you appreciated the video. You too can tell how Mastro Livi hone a razor as you personally witnessed that when you were in Perugia, from grinding to stropping. That yellow stone he uses is a 3k. I guess he starts from that grit because of the good job he does in grinding. I can personally say a freshly ground razor made by Mastro Livi and not honed with stones at all, is capable of cutting already. That's why I think he can start from that grit. We should also consider the fact this is a freshly ground razor and not a razor to be restored: in my experience about restoring razors, they are different and have a different edge condition.
The blade you see in the video is exactly the one returned by the client and exactly the one I bought.

Mastro does use far lower than 3000 grit on bevel setting, I saw him go through 5 stones progression starting out at 220 grit on a norton combo on the snake vid, and now this progression is 3k to coti without slurry ? then crox, will that razor be smooth shaving ? I don't see many coticules that would give up there qualities so easy. To say that a 1k stones is not good for his razors ? Every man and his dog uses 1k to set bevels, personally I use Chosera 1k. Not trying to knock the bloke just curious about the contradicting info.

Originally Posted by markodams

Mastro does use far lower than 3000 grit on bevel setting, I saw him go through 5 stones progression starting out at 220 grit on a norton combo on the snake vid, and now this progression is 3k to coti without slurry ? then crox, will that razor be smooth shaving ? I don't see many coticules that would give up there qualities so easy. To say that a 1k stones is not good for his razors ? Every man and his dog uses 1k to set bevels, personally I use Chosera 1k. Not trying to knock the bloke just curious about the contradicting info.

I disagree and I 'to spirgare why'.
It 'clear that Mastro Livi to get to the perfection of the razor's edge can' use many different ways, can 'use 1,2,3,4 mole; can 'use the sanding belt, can' use a variety of different stones, both natural and synthetic. At the end will have 'always a knife ready to cut his beard. When he shows his techniques in video Mastro Livi tells us that we do not have your experience, what is the way most 'easy to get the result. It does this by explaining everything he does to try to get us to understand and avoid major damage on the blades. With a Belgian stone is difficult to damage steel, with a 1000 hand a little experience can 'produce those damages. I have personally seen work Mastro Livi many times, and not just on my razors or those created by him, many Italian amateurs send their old razors found in flea markets to be recovered and restored. You can believe or not believe, but I assure you that those hands could come out also that shaves a hoe!
I apologize if my google translator wrote unclearly my thoughts.

Originally Posted by markodams

I can still see chips in that 'finished' edge and I can pretty much say he saw them too judging by how fast he moved the scope and how little tome he spent reviewing the edge.....compared to the length of time he criticised the edge when he first got it.

Dear markodams, even mighty god's creatures gets sick when they do not care themselves, let alone a razor made by a human being, I have two mastro livi razors they are wonderful. But it does not mean every razor will be the same and perfect. I had seen in a video he has a carton of unfinished razors because of defects. It is a normal process But if you say You still see chips in the finished edge in the video which I did not see neither. It is against the nature of procedure. Because It is a video, shot and prepared and watched by them. , if there was something bad in that edge, they would cut that place out, or worse they would not release the video.

Originally Posted by markodams

Mastro does use far lower than 3000 grit on bevel setting, I saw him go through 5 stones progression starting out at 220 grit on a norton combo on the snake vid, and now this progression is 3k to coti without slurry ? then crox, will that razor be smooth shaving ? I don't see many coticules that would give up there qualities so easy. To say that a 1k stones is not good for his razors ? Every man and his dog uses 1k to set bevels, personally I use Chosera 1k. Not trying to knock the bloke just curious about the contradicting info.

I am not Mastro Livi and I can only speak for myself. Since the day I met him, I have always seen him using a 3k kai stone for setting the bevel of his freshly ground razors. Personally speaking, I do restore razors since 2003 and I hardly had the need of using a 1k stone for setting a bevel on a vintage razor. I usually do that with a 3k naniwa stone.
Having said that, while pointing out again - although I collect, restore and use straight razors for more than ten years now - I do not consider myself an expert in honing (I do not consider myself an expert, anyway) but I would not use a 1k stone in a razor. I think it is too coarse compared to the fragility and very thin thickness of a razor's edge. We should also consider brand new razors are different from vintage razors as they clearly have - generally speaking - edges with far different conditions.
I am not of course criticizing your honing method and style and I have no intention in starting an argument here, also for the fact I do listen and respect everyone, but I do not think Mastro Livi said 1k stones are not good for his razors, he said he would not suggest using that stone.
I am sure you are very good at honing and have a remarkable experience - according to what you say, I guess you are an expert in this, no pun intended here - but I also believe every one of us develops and uses our own method with which we can get good and satisfactory results. Like to say, our mileage may vary.
Like I said, I do not consider myself an expert, but I guess I have a lot to learn from a professional straight razor maker and restorer like Mastro Livi, someone who has more than sixty years of daily experience with razors, shears, blades of any type and honing. And, as far as I can tell, all the good advices he gave me in one year and a half drastically changed the way I hone and maintain a razor, and it made a huge difference. Of course, this may also mean I was very very bad at honing and maintaining a razor and, at least, I could learn something in order to improve my skill. And this is what I am trying to do every day.
However, I believe a vintage razor is different from a freshly ground razor and, as far as I can see, they should be treated differently. As for Mastro Livi razors, I personally witnessed - and I am not the only one here - they can shave at the end of the grinding process. (Yes, I tried that myself) Of course the edge is quite harsh, the shave is not very comfortable, but they shave. That's why I believe his edges are very thin and what he basically does is just to refine and smooth both the bevel and edge with a 3k. Just my opinion, of course.

I think Antonello has hit the nail on the head here with YMMV. I also thing we need to take into account a honemeister vs hobbyist such as ourselves. We are privileged nowadays with a plethora of information at our fingertips and can find numerous videos on how to hone.
Mastro Livi is as old school as you can get. He is purely hands on, no smartphones, internet and the like (I think he leaves that upto his son). For him it's all about the feel and sound. He can tell how an edge is developing by how it feels on the hone (as any good honemeister should) and this experience he's taught himself from years of trial and error since he was a kid. watching him how he handles a blade through honing and stropping is mesmerising

I've personally spent time with both Antonello and Mastro Livi and can say it was the most fantastic experience. Seeing my razor created from some pieces of metal through to a masterpiece. I thoroughly recommend going to see him and watch him create a razor for you. It's a wonderful and magical experience.

Originally Posted by taskind

It is a normal process But if you say You still see chips in the finished edge in the video which I did not see neither. It is against the nature of procedure. Because It is a video, shot and prepared and watched by them. , if there was something bad in that edge, they would cut that place out, or worse they would not release the video.

Hi Taskind, Indeed that makes sense.

If you pause the vid at 26:27, 26:28, 26:29, 26:32 and so on you can very clearly see chips. You could say that its the poor vid but I don't think so.

Originally Posted by markodams

Hi Taskind, Indeed that makes sense.

If you pause the vid at 26:27, 26:28, 26:29, 26:32 and so on you can very clearly see chips. You could say that its the poor vid but I don't think so.

I personally shot the video and I personally edited it. I did not cut anything from the original videos. And I did not certainly edit the video in order to put Mastro Livi in a good light. Why should I do that?
Moreover, I bought that razor and I was present while they were checking the edge with both the USB and optical microscope. The only way I had to show the edge was filming the monitor and what the USB microscope provided. And, on this regard, everyone into photography knows about the "pitfalls" of taking pictures or filming a monitor because of the way the image is being formed and how monitor's lighting system is involved in the process.
Do you really think I would have bought a razor with chips? Do you really think I would pay a razor with such faults? Really? I may not be an expert, but I guess it does not take an expert to see a chip with a microscope and, in more than ten years of restoring razors, I guess I can recognize a chip in the edge, even with naked eyes or thumb's nail.
Who personally knows me, knows what my job is about and how I am and that I never accept compromises when it comes to my job and to my life. And there is no exception here.
You see chips while I don't. At this point, I guess you just want to see chips (and I do not know why) and you are not considering some basic facts about optics and what happens when an object is being hit by light. Moreover, when you try to take pictures of a shiny object capable of reflecting light, such as a piece of shiny steel (like to say, a mirror) under a microscope and lit by direct light. Everyone into photography and astronomy knows this effect and knows why. You see chips, I see a very shiny and fully illuminated edge reflecting light and becoming white (and for this reason it is more difficult to notice it in a white background, but if you look carefully and have a good monitor, you can see it) with a less illuminated part in which I see the effect of honing because of magnification.
Moreover, I do not think we should start talking about what happens when you magnify an object to 400x.
My mistake certainly was to use the very poor camera of my smartphone. As the making of that video was not planned at all, I did not have with me my HD camera which certainly is better than all of the very poor cameras usually installed on smartphones or similar devices. I however hope the video can be enjoyed anyway despite of its poor quality.

Originally Posted by markodams

Hi Taskind, Indeed that makes sense.

If you pause the vid at 26:27, 26:28, 26:29, 26:32 and so on you can very clearly see chips. You could say that its the poor vid but I don't think so.

I disagree. First of all we are looking a 400x. I think the anomalies that may look like chips to some people at the time stamps mentioned are a combination of reflections, and/or residue from Mastro cutting the dry hair, and shaving his cheek. Add to that skin from the dry shave.

I routinely check my honing with a 40x microscope, and a 30x eye loupe. At that relatively low power I will see residue from the HHT and from the strop. At 400x I can only imagine how much more it would show.

Looking at the earlier scans with the microscope, before Mastro fixed the blade, I am betting the first owner of that blade used heavy slurry and did circles. That would account for the mixed scratches further up the belly of the blade past the bevel. Circles are fine if you are practiced at using that technique but they remove more metal, more quickly, than x strokes, and in an unpracticed and heavy hand may be too much of a good thing. The same with slurry. A little can go a long way. Some guys watch honing vids and end up creating so much slurry they're essentially dragging their razor through mud.

Referring to the video made years ago of Mastro honing a snake razor ....... I dare say if you look at a video of Lynn Abrams honing 5 or 6 years ago you'll see differences in the technique he is using now, as opposed to what he was doing then. Not surprising that Mastro also has more than one way to skin the cat, figuratively speaking.

We come along to SRP and read tutorials, watch videos, and practice honing. We develop some skills and suddenly we are experts and critics. How many razors have passed through Mastro Livi's hands ? Thousands no doubt. I'd say he is more than a craftsman, he is an artist. Great looking blade in those boxwood scales.