Thread: Strop Treatments: How far should we take it???

I have been in many discussions about pastes and compounds that are small fractions of a micron.

The supposition that I always return to is that most steels seem unable to support edges this fine, so why bother? Simply put if you hone an edge to a billion grit finish and the edge degrades to a finish that appears under a scope like a 20k finish after a single stroke across your beard....why bother?

I certainly agree with Stefan that you've got to have the foundation of a shave ready edge to take full advantage of these ultra high grit strop "enhancements." I'm still hung up on getting my shaving edges off of the rocks alone, rather than 'gilding the lilly' with some powder or paste concoction.

If someone is of a curious bent, always 'pushing the envelope' then I guess they will try these 'new kids on the block' alternatives. A series of balsa, or hard felt, linen, leather ..... bench strops for the different grits would be the way to go. Of course you would have to keep the grits separate.

Fortunately for me, having tried some of these super sharp edges I found I prefer a gentler, more forgiving edge that I get from taking a shave ready edge to a natural finishing stone. I can get the edge I prefer from my escher or a slightly less 'crisp' edge off a coticule. There are times when I like that even gentler coti edge.

Finally, it has always rubbed me the wrong way , to take an edge from a finishing stone I paid hundreds of dollars for to a substrate with a dollars worth of some powder or paste coating it. OTOH if I wasn't satisfied with the edge I get off my finishers I'd no doubt be doing paste or powder too. Whatever floats your boat.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Finally, it has always rubbed me the wrong way , to take an edge from a finishing stone I paid hundreds of dollars for to a substrate with a dollars worth of some powder or paste coating it. OTOH if I wasn't satisfied with the edge I get off my finishers I'd no doubt be doing paste or powder too. Whatever floats your boat.

Another fantastic point...though, something need not cost a lot to do the best job

However, in the knife world, I VERY frequently see people produce edges that are not even sharp, then they strop them to "sort of sharp" on compounds. This really blows my mind...to have lots of dollars tied up in stones, and hones that are not even used properly in the first place!!!

This really rings into the frequent discussion here about using a Norton 8K...if that don't work pretty good, nothin' finer will either...but that is not really what this thread is about I think.

I think we need to consider what our razors can actually tolerate...at some point (even with a VERY fine razor) you may well be polishing beyond its potential...and why waste the effort and money? One trip to some of the popular knife forums will show you a wealth of individuals that seek to polish out edges that are worthless for all but bragging rights...and they KNOW it. They just enjoy the pursuit of making a knife able to push cut toilet paper, or whatever the dark-siders are doing these days. At that point it is about pushing limits well beyond the absurd...as the first time you open a piece of mail with that blade, the polish job is erased (again, they KNOW this, but do it anyway).

There is a lot to be said about mellower edges also...Sharper is not always better

640K grit. Use that on my razors every day. It's called Water!!!

Originally Posted by unit

I have been in many discussions about pastes and compounds that are small fractions of a micron.

The supposition that I always return to is that most steels seem unable to support edges this fine, so why bother? Simply put if you hone an edge to a billion grit finish and the edge degrades to a finish that appears under a scope like a 20k finish after a single stroke across your beard....why bother?

Well actually your statement about a degrading edge or over honing with sprays and paste is unfounded and Glenn experiment proves that for sure. Months of using diamond sprays, weekly and aggressively with
no harm to the edge on different razors.
That said i do understand that some will not consider paste and sprays and prefer to use stone only, and thats fine as well.
Personally i do like sprays and just dont feel like spending hundreds of dollars to find a good j-nat that will achieved the same results.

Originally Posted by Martin103

Well actually your statement about a degrading edge or over honing with sprays and paste is unfounded and Glenn experiment proves that for sure. Months of using diamond sprays, weekly and aggressively with
no harm to the edge on different razors.
That said i do understand that some will not consider paste and sprays and prefer to use stone only, and thats fine as well.
Personally i do like sprays and just dont feel like spending hundreds of dollars to find a good j-nat that will achieved the same results.

I am curious as to why you quoted me for this?

I would never make such a claim about degrading an edge or over-honing as I have no idea what "over honing" is unless it means wasting steel by grinding away more than is necessary.

What you quoted from me is just the conjecture that polishing an edge beyond what the steel can support through a single pass across your face seems silly to me.

How far? Is a good question, at some point you sacrifice keenness for comfort and longevity. For me it is at 120K using the .125 CBN on a hanging strop.

The Poly, Mono Diamond and CBN are not a panacea and just like a quality high grit finishing stone, they are worthless without proper preparation. The best performance can only be obtained from a base of a properly prepared bevel and edge.

Remember you edge is or should be sharp at 1k, anything after that is just refining/polishing the bevel and edge, by reducing the height of the land of the stria and thereby refining/straightening the edge for keenness and comfort.

Much of Ken’s edge development is fueled by knife sharpening for reed making were a micro serrated edge is a benefit not a hindrance. We are using his technology for a different purpose and as such Mono & Poly Diamond (the 640K grits) may not work as well for our purposes.

The crystal shape of CBN is different from Diamond and seems to produce exactly what we are looking for keenness and comfort. One of the problems we encounter with Nano grits is the partial size is so small most of the carriers commonly used inherently contain grits larger that Nano grit partial size.

CBN does produce a keen comfortable edge much keener that can be achieved by stones alone. Once at that level maintenance is quite simple and long-lasting.

Originally Posted by unit

What you quoted from me is just the conjecture that polishing an edge beyond what the steel can support through a single pass across your face seems silly to me.

Yes that was i was referring to, that statement, nothing silly about it people been using paste for decades!

Originally Posted by Martin103

Yes that was i was referring to, that statement, nothing silly about it people been using paste for decades!

I would suggest you take another look at what I typed. I never suggested that pastes were bad or lead to over honing or anything like that. I use pastes and recommend them TO A POINT!!!

I was alluding to polishing to a level of finish beyond what the steel can support!

Perhaps there are razors made from steels that can be polished to X00,000 grit levels and RETAIN this level of polish after shaving...I suspect there are few that can. I suggest that edge refinements beyond some grit levels (perhaps 30k...perhaps 100K?) are silly based on the benefits being erased when the blade touches beard.

If you have data that refutes this, please share it.

I may be new to straight razors, but I am not new to steel or polishing edges. Credentials mean nothing compared to good data though, and I will be the first to admit it!

I think this is going exactly where I want it to unit. The whole purpose was to debate or confirm if these would be of any benefit to the edge. I whole-heartedly agree that if you are creating an edge that isn't sustainable, then what is the point? The whole point of the edge of a razor is to be able to last for the duration of not just one but many shaves without having to do any major adjustments to it.

To confirm my question about over honing: Perhaps I am misusing the term but I have read/seen images blades with wire edges, or foil edges. I suppose I assumed this was due to 'over honing' the blade to a point at which the bevel meets and is so thin that it acts as a foil causing bending/breaking/microchipping etc.

I was wondering if this could result of taking the blade to such a high grit that this happens and if these pastes/treatments/sprays are capable of doing that.

Again, all this is assuming that the person doing the honing stropping is using proper, even, methodical technique.