Thread: Strop Treatments: How far should we take it???

We are constantly pushing the edge of the proverbial envelop, that’s partially what this site is about. For years I honed on Arks, a Surgical Black and Translucent were the edge of the envelope for me and many others. We also drove cars with drum brakes and poo pooed those disc brakes “gadgets” and ABS garbage’.

Not everything works and I still love those Ark edges, but that 120K edge that even a novice can repeatedly produce for a few bucks…Next thing you know we’ll put a man on the moon.

First, You should have a good shaving edge at 8k. Once you have that, you can play around with different finisher's and pastes. I keep it pretty simple, Escher to finish, and I've playing with the South African hone. It's fun to experiment. Just like those sprays and pastes. Someone was kind enough to send me a sample of CBN 160g. I was really surprised what it did to my blade. The blade was not harsh at all, very keen, and very smooth. I'm talking about experimenting, not using each time I hone as a rule.

Originally Posted by unit

I would suggest you take another look at what I typed. I never suggested that pastes were bad or lead to over honing or anything like that. I use pastes and recommend them TO A POINT!!!

I was alluding to polishing to a level of finish beyond what the steel can support!

Perhaps there are razors made from steels that can be polished to X00,000 grit levels and RETAIN this level of polish after shaving...I suspect there are few that can. I suggest that edge refinements beyond some grit levels (perhaps 30k...perhaps 100K?) are silly based on the benefits being erased when the blade touches beard.

If you have data that refutes this, please share it.

I may be new to straight razors, but I am not new to steel or polishing edges. Credentials mean nothing compared to good data though, and I will be the first to admit it!

For example many use CROX after stones to remove some harshness, we are talking about just a few passes here like 5 to 10,(.5 crox= 30,000 grit) but that doesnt mean the razor is a the 30k level!
There been a lot of discussion about the Shapton 30k hone, and from what i gathered it is somewhat easy,
to make the edge collapse on this hone if your not careful.That said im not sure what most razors will take but probably around 20 to 30k would be my guess.

Originally Posted by zib

First, You should have a good shaving edge at 8k. Once you have that, you can play around with different finisher's and pastes. I keep it pretty simple, Escher to finish, and I've playing with the South African hone. It's fun to experiment. Just like those sprays and pastes. Someone was kind enough to send me a sample of CBN 160g. I was really surprised what it did to my blade. The blade was not harsh at all, very keen, and very smooth. I'm talking about experimenting, not using each time I hone as a rule.

Thats the beauty of CBN very smooth!

A 120K / .125 CBN edge stropped on a hanging strop will last for 2 weeks of daily shaving, stropping on suede leather and cordovan only. At two weeks the edge “begins” to drop off. 5-10 laps of .125 will bring it, right back. At that level with a progression of CBN the bevel is stria free gleaming, not for looks but for edge straightness.

For now that is the limit for me.

Martin you bring up a good point, if you strop on 30K paste is it a 30K edge?

I don’t know. Perhaps that is why we can go to 120K and still have a two week shaveable edge. Stropping is not honing and what is most interesting about CBN is, there is no visible steel on the strop.

Originally Posted by brooksie967

I think this is going exactly where I want it to unit. The whole purpose was to debate or confirm if these would be of any benefit to the edge. I whole-heartedly agree that if you are creating an edge that isn't sustainable, then what is the point? The whole point of the edge of a razor is to be able to last for the duration of not just one but many shaves without having to do any major adjustments to it.

To confirm my question about over honing: Perhaps I am misusing the term but I have read/seen images blades with wire edges, or foil edges. I suppose I assumed this was due to 'over honing' the blade to a point at which the bevel meets and is so thin that it acts as a foil causing bending/breaking/microchipping etc.

I was wondering if this could result of taking the blade to such a high grit that this happens and if these pastes/treatments/sprays are capable of doing that.

Again, all this is assuming that the person doing the honing stropping is using proper, even, methodical technique.

Cool. I think that you and I are thinking in a similar direction.

I'd suggest that wire edges are a result of technique and are independent of grit size. I see it frequently on stainless steels...and it can happen with very low grit if you don't know how to detect it and correct it.

Refining an edge beyond your needs is something we all perhaps strive for...but how far beyond is what I am discussing. An order of magnitude beyond my needs is what I classify as 'silly'. YMMV...as will what is needed in the first place.

Originally Posted by Martin103

For example many use CROX after stones to remove some harshness, we are talking about just a few passes here like 5 to 10,(.5 crox= 30,000 grit) but that doesnt mean the razor is a the 30k level!
There been a lot of discussion about the Shapton 30k hone, and from what i gathered it is somewhat easy,
to make the edge collapse on this hone if your not careful.That said im not sure what most razors will take but probably around 20 to 30k would be my guess.

No offense but "we" are not talking about the same thing. "I" am talking about more than a few passes and grit sizes 20 or more TIMES what you are.

Given this, I think we may agree on what I was talking about

There is a hard limit to the edge of the Razor...That limit depends on the Grind and Steel it is according to the Voerhaven paper somewhere between the haircutting start of .50 microns, and about .37 microns... So keep in mind as you hone when you hit .50 microns the hairs start to cut, which we generally assume at 1k levels, you can only possibly get .13 microns better from that edge..
Now the sides of the bevel can be polished to a prefect mirror, -BUT- there is no proof that doing so creates a smoother shave in fact Natural stone enthusiasts tend to claim the exact opposite..

So we are left with about 1/10 of a micron that seems to be the essence of all the finishing debates on every razor forum in the world

Basically the same thing as 90% of honing is in the bevel set the next 9% is in refining the sharpness and the last 1% is personal preference and what we love to argue about

Thanks Glen. I suspected the limit was somewhere around 30k...but it was pure conjecture based on the steels I have worked with.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom.