Thread: Paper testing razors

Originally Posted by Splashone

Since the comfort of a shave is a completely personal experience, it is by definition subjective. How would you devise an objective test for a subjective quality?

Very well said.
We start with a piece of steel that we know little about and want it to react like the last piece of steel. We each use slightly different angles of the blade to the stone, but expect the same results. We each use slightly different pressures, consistency of slurry, different stones, and shave a different face, with a different beard with different pressure to the skin. No one can make a razor perfect for you, as they cannot feel the razor on Your face. Can't be made completely scientific, and wouldn't be any fun if we could.
Have fun!

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Another thing that happens after some time is that the hands get more educated & lighter so less toothy mashed up edges. Testing with paper does not create less 'teeth'.

No it does not. I believe many of our senses get more educated and acute to our honing and our testing with time and more experience. Only more likely to find the condition before the test shave if we have not avoided it altogether.

Originally Posted by bigeasy1

No it does not. I believe many of our senses get more educated and acute to our honing and our testing with time and more experience. Only more likely to find the condition before the test shave if we have not avoided it altogether.

Well it may depend on what you call a toothy edge but they can shave just as well as a smooth looking edge & if your 'test' tells you something different you may be creating more work for nothing.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Well it may depend on what you call a toothy edge but they can shave just as well as a smooth looking edge & if your 'test' tells you something different you may be creating more work for nothing.

I agree completely. I suppose without the experience, one could also create a tooth or two with cutting paper. I would think experience and style with shaving would also determine just how sensitive one is to a toothy edge. I have found that I shave with a much lighter hand than I once did, and may be less sensitive to a scratchy edge. Once gave a small razor to a friend warning that I could not get a really good shave with it. He sends an email saying he got a wonderful shave. Huh? Under interrogation, he tells me he uses shampoo with conditioner between the preshave oil, and the lather, while putting the hot towels to his face. Had to try it and it was a fantastic shave. Unfortunately, I hone more for other people, and don't feel like I can use it on those razors as it may be too likely to cover too many imperfections.

Originally Posted by bigeasy1

I agree completely. I suppose without the experience, one could also create a tooth or two with cutting paper. I would think experience and style with shaving would also determine just how sensitive one is to a toothy edge. I have found that I shave with a much lighter hand than I once did, and may be less sensitive to a scratchy edge. Once gave a small razor to a friend warning that I could not get a really good shave with it. He sends an email saying he got a wonderful shave. Huh? Under interrogation, he tells me he uses shampoo with conditioner between the preshave oil, and the lather, while putting the hot towels to his face. Had to try it and it was a fantastic shave. Unfortunately, I hone more for other people, and don't feel like I can use it on those razors as it may be too likely to cover too many imperfections.

I'm not sure if you get my point. I'm saying a toothy looking edge can shave identically to a smooth looking edge. No difference whatsoever. No scratchiness. No need for any compensation in lather or prep.
Below are 2 Pumas that shave identically one looks smoother than the other but no difference whatsoever in the shave test.

Originally Posted by bigeasy1

It is not going to ruin the edge if you have some experience with it, but anything you cut with a razor will cause some destruction to the edge, and paper is certainly no exception. 'Clay', very similar material to what your hone is made of.

But hones remove steel don't they? That is how you alter the edge, I thought the point of making a razor shave ready is not to alter the edge once it was finished.
I know paper cutting tests are great to show sharpness of a knife edges, we deal with razors here though.

Originally Posted by bigeasy1

... with the finishing and any test you do, you will know by this point if you are ready for the strop or test shave. I have not had a toothy edge problem in quite some time testing with paper.
Cheers

If you can tolerate the flaming that's sure to follow, could you outline how you're using paper, with the important bits you've discovered along the way? A test that causes some damage, which can be reversed in 3 or 4 or even 10 passes on a finisher seems like a promising test. I'm definitely curious.

Originally Posted by Slurryer

If you can tolerate the flaming that's sure to follow, could you outline how you're using paper, with the important bits you've discovered along the way?

Search the internet for paper cutting tests for straight razors. You are not going to find many results because paper cutting tests have not proven to bring anything to the table as far as edge diagnostics in about 200 years of straight razor shaving.

A test that causes some damage, which can be reversed in 3 or 4 or even 10 passes on a finisher seems like a promising test. I'm definitely curious.

The purpose of testing the edge is to see how the refinement progresses towards the final finishing stage. At the final finishing stage one needs to have a fine enough test to be able to judge the result of the honing job. Such test is the HHT, and even that is not too consistent because it depends on hair type. Still hair is about the finest thing one can find to test their edge with. What information is one going to gain from cutting paper at the finishing stage of the honing when paper is a lot thicker than hair and it has nothing of the properties of hair? Paper is a lot easier to cut than hair. Cutting paper does not present refinement over HHT as edge testing method. The shaving test presents such refinement of razor edge test.

I do not mind novel approaches, but they have to have some merit to them and be applicable to the purpose. One has to have some kind of proof that their proposed method of testing edges indeed is useful and gives information that can be used to improve upon the results, and is not obtainable through already existing methods.

In straight razor honing what one is interested in really is proper bevel set, that is probably 90% of the honing of a razor. Once that is done the rest is refinement of the edge, unless something is wrong with the steel the steps all the way up to the finishing hone are pretty straight forward and uneventful. Finishing the blade is where one has to make sure the edge is as refined as possible off the used finisher, and then the shave test shows if the honing job was successful. At the finishing stage, the one test that can be used is the HHT, but that only shows that the blade is sharp enough to cut hair, not how well the razor ill shave.

Finally about paper cutting. Paper cutting will work at 1k just as fine, as a matter of fact, the more refined the edge the less successful in cutting paper, you have to have some teeth there to grab the paper. Find a piece of paper that is as thin as hair and give it a try with a knife finished like a razor ( I doubt the edge quality will be the same due to geometry and how heavy knives are compared) Not so with hair, the edge grabs on the scales that cover tha hair and that is where the hair is cut.

Here's my thing everyone. We're here to share information. A hundred smilliar opinions is not very informative. There's just as much value in a technique that has negative results as a technique that has positive results. You learn something from both. I'm just as interested in learning what doesn't work as what does, and the reasons why. bigeasy1 has a technique that works for him. I want to understand why it works for him. Then I want to learn why it does or does not work for me. What are the things I should consider doing it this way, or do the con's out way the pro's. Or is there any benefit at all to this technique? Learning the pro's and con's is part of the process. I'm not looking for the holy grail of honing. Just some info on one man's technique, and how it's working for him. I'm a fairly smart guy. I'll figure out where this fits in the scheme of things through the opinions here, and my own personal experience.

Hmm, people are sharing info with you. They will not always agree, nor all be in consensus over what works best. We are all human, with our own faults, opinions, imperfections and perceptions. No two of us are alike, so one can't expect us all to do everything alike. Take the info from all and digest it as you like. The info from a guy saying something won't work well has equal value to someone suggesting a method that has value to him if the recipient of the information is open-minded.