Thread: Paper testing razors

Cutting paper with a straight is an absolute no-go.
Paper does not only have clay but also sometimes metals (paint has included heavy metals i.e.) and fibres (glas and plastic fibres you will find in recycled paper, newspaper, etc.) included that can easily destroy an edge, even if it occurs only in very small particles.
I remember one of my first sharpening course with an old german grinding and honing master several years ago. We normally used paper to test the sharpeness of our kitchen and pocket knifes and that works fine. One day somebody brougth a straight into the course, sharpened it and began to test with paper. We only heard a loud scream from the master that he should never do this again, otherwise he will be expulsed from the course immediately. And the old masters knew exactly what they were doing.

Originally Posted by eKretz

OK now that's just insulting. Because someone regularly reads this message board it makes them a closed-minded pinhead?

As far as your other points, first, there are striations visible on that razor, they are just very shallow. If you had followed the link and read a moment you'd have seen that the razor in question was honed on a 16k Shapton, then a pasted hanging leather strop was used with .5 micron diamond abrasive. 1 micron is .001mm, so we're talking diamond particles that are .0005mm in diameter. On hanging leather which lets the particles push away rather than cut deeply. How on earth are you expecting to see deep striations?

Second, there is no way in hell you are going to shave comfortably with a .005mm (5 micron!) apex width on a razor. Average comfortable shaving width for a razor apex that I've seen bandied about is under .5 micron, or .0005mm.

Third, of course bare leather stropping does something. It aligns and straightens the edge/apex and removes burrs. Enough laps can start to burnish slightly, but isn't going to make large structural changes to an edge. If you are seeing something like that when stropping then you likely have contamination on your strop.

The general point here is that cutting paper with a finished edge (shave-ready) razor will damage the edge. Will it damage the edge more than a shave? Maybe, maybe not. But why would you want to start your first shave with a fresh honed razor with an edge that has been damaged enough to where it might as well be your second shave or more? Personally I'd prefer to let that damage occur during the shaves, not prior to them.

No insult was intended toward anyone. Seems to me that if someone posted that he had successfully honed a good number razors, finishing with 0000 steel wool, and I knew he was being serious, I would want to ask some questions and try to learn his method, before I simply remarked "No Way". I'm a little insulted that some here seem to want to make me out to be an idiot, or a liar, since it is my professed method they are saying cannot work, or is certain to damage the edge. But then, as mentioned in an earlier post, I was expecting flames. I was on another forum where someone remarked that he had just come from a "razor meet" where they proved in mere seconds that cutting paper would damage the razor. Hmm, I wonder if that is how long he took to learn HHT? Yes, anyone can cut a piece of paper with a razor, that doesn't mean he has learned the method, any more than a newbie being able to cut a few whiskers has learned to shave.

I work a 10 hour a day job and stay busy with razors once I get home, and often fall asleep at the computer, as some of you may notice the times of the posts. But you guys are going to force me to post 500X pictures of edges before and after cutting paper, aren't you. I'm afraid once I do, there will still be droves of nay sayers.
You'll want the pics?

Originally Posted by bigeasy1

No insult was intended toward anyone. Seems to me that if someone posted that he had successfully honed a good number razors, finishing with 0000 steel wool, and I knew he was being serious, I would want to ask some questions and try to learn his method, before I simply remarked "No Way". I'm a little insulted that some here seem to want to make me out to be an idiot, or a liar, since it is my professed method they are saying cannot work, or is certain to damage the edge. But then, as mentioned in an earlier post, I was expecting flames. I was on another forum where someone remarked that he had just come from a "razor meet" where they proved in mere seconds that cutting paper would damage the razor. Hmm, I wonder if that is how long he took to learn HHT? Yes, anyone can cut a piece of paper with a razor, that doesn't mean he has learned the method, any more than a newbie being able to cut a few whiskers has learned to shave.

I work a 10 hour a day job and stay busy with razors once I get home, and often fall asleep at the computer, as some of you may notice the times of the posts. But you guys are going to force me to post 500X pictures of edges before and after cutting paper, aren't you. I'm afraid once I do, there will still be droves of nay sayers.
You'll want the pics?

Dude, nobody is saying you can't do whatever you like. Or calling you a liar. If your method works for you, use it, by all means. At the same time, don't rag on people who don't want to use it. You are facing an uphill battle here because many of us have already tried cutting paper and found it damaging. Your analogy with steel wool is a little off-base IMO, there is only one way to cut paper with a blade. A 500x picture will not show the damage clearer than a 5000x image, but if you would like to post your images go right ahead. I hope you will at least use several types of varying lighting so it will be an objective view. There is no arguing that cutting paper will not damage a fine edge on a razor in my opinion. Every time I have ever done it for more than a very short distance it has made my edge go backward, judged from hanging hair testing. Let me ask you this... Do you strop after cutting the paper? If so, why do you do it if there's no edge damage?

Originally Posted by eKretz

Average comfortable shaving width for a razor apex that I've seen bandied about is under .5 micron, or .0005mm.
.

Interesting observation; It looks to me that if the rolled edge in the picture was stropped and the edge broke off where there is an obvious crack, the resulting edge width would be around .5 microns.

My take on the whole paper cutting thing is that it is a probing test that causes some damage, similar to the TNT and may be useful around the 1k level, like the TNT. Personally I would not recommend either of those tests above the 1k level and I would always follow the test with more laps at 1k to correct the damage.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

Interesting observation; It looks to me that if the rolled edge in the picture was stropped and the edge broke off where there is an obvious crack, the resulting edge width would be around .5 microns.

My take on the whole paper cutting thing is that it is a probing test that causes some damage, similar to the TNT and may be useful around the 1k level, like the TNT. Personally I would not recommend either of those tests above the 1k level and I would always follow the test with more laps at 1k to correct the damage.

The edge width after breaking off that roll might be shaveable but I think it would take a LOT of stropping to get there. Possibly requiring some form of paste stropping. .5 micron would be the upper threshold for a shave I believe... Maybe even a little too wide. As I recall something like .3 or .4 microns was the practical limit. Can't remember where I read that though.


Agreed on the paper cutting. At bevel set I'm sure it could be useful, with your caveats.

Originally Posted by bigeasy1

I'm a little insulted that some here seem to want to make me out to be an idiot, or a liar, since it is my professed method they are saying cannot work, or is certain to damage the edge. But then, as mentioned in an earlier post, I was expecting flames.

No one is trying to insult you but to some of us who have been honing razors for decades, your method looks like taking 1 step forward & 2 steps back.

Sharpness is achieved at bevel set. There is no need to test a razor after the bevel set & at that point cutting paper is just as useable as any other destructive test. Beyond that you are spinning your wheels & I for one find it hard to take that seriously..

Originally Posted by onimaru55

No one is trying to insult you but to some of us who have been honing razors for decades, your method looks like taking 1 step forward & 2 steps back.

Sharpness is achieved at bevel set. There is no need to test a razor after the bevel set & at that point cutting paper is just as useable as any other destructive test. Beyond that you are spinning your wheels & I for one find it hard to take that seriously..

This is intended for more than just the quoted post. Mr. Onimaru55, you have an uncanny knack for calming a conversation. Guess that is why you are a moderator. You have my full respect sir. I debated a while about posting tonight, and I'm going to bed after this one. To Slurryer and several others that were here to discus a stone, I apologize that was overshadowed. I did warn it was likely to happen. To anyone else who feels that I have tried to belittle their methods, that was never my intent and I believe I have shown a significant restraint to avoid that. I have no problem with anyone's methods.
In answer to a question in an earlier post today, Yes, I do strop after testing, after the final honing, I also test after stropping, and am likely to go to the test shave without further stropping. Early in my straight razor honing, I was never able to get a satisfactory shave directly from any hone I tired, and soon found there were easier and quicker methods to that end, and stopped trying to shave from the hone. A couple of months back, honing a C-Mon Blackie, the razor was doing as expected every step of the way, sooner than I expect. When I tested, at what I thought should be the end, the razor floated thru the cut so smoothly, it convinced me it was time to try again from the stone. It was a respectable shave. The next night I did about 20 laps on a cloth strop before shaving, and it was a great shave. I have a method of stropping on cloth that reaches a point I am looking for. That point is best determined by a microscope, or I can tell with a paper cut. the microscope is in the other room, at the computer, and is a cheapy, awkward to use. The pad of paper is right there. Guess I should mention here, I have strops at my honing bench and more in the bathroom.

In agreement here, cutting paper is a destructive test. It can roll an edge, but it doesn't have to. The lone cut does not have to dull the edge enough to make it noticeably less shave worth, but can be. I started my comments very early with saying there can be potholes learning my method. Rolled edge is only one. I understand that there are many honers with decades of experience that do not test beyond the bevel, and agree that there is normally little need. There are some that have no need to test then, unless using a bevel setter that is new to them. Many of you have ways that are telling you, realizing them or not, when enough is enough.

Many here do not have that level of experience. They are looking for something to test with to help ensure them that they are moving in the right direction. I do not have decades of honing experience. I do have decades of cutting paper to test any number of edged instruments, including very fine edged chef's knives. Granted not as fine or delicate as a straight razor. When I started honing razors, I was not aware of places such as SRP. I had a method to test. It was not an easy transition into razors, but it worked, along with finding some potholes. Maybe my experience with paper cutting lead me to believe it was easy for anyone to learn. Evident that was not the case, by the number of people here who say they tried it a lot without success. But anyone's lack of success doesn't prove that something can't be done, it only proves that this person cannot do it, at this point in time. One picture of failure, does not prove it can't be done. 1,000 pictures of failure do not prove it can't be done.

There are other people here that cut paper. They rarely say so because they know the results, as I mentioned at the beginning when I brought it up. I would not expect anyone, including myself, to go to a lot of effort to learn something they have no need for, and have learned, and have been taught, doesn't work. Not my loss or yours on any count.

If anyone feels a need for the pictures, I will provide them. They will not be at several different light levels from different angles, as my scope is not that easy to maneuver, and I expect that would be a lot of pictures, as my intention was to do a shot of an edge ready to shave, a shot after 1 slice, after 3 slices, after 5 slices, after a shave, and then??? I am not going to do it unless there is some indication they will be received openly, and they will have to be done over the week-end. Regardless of pics or not, I will keep an eye on the thread to see if it returns to the original conversation, although I doubt that is going to happen.
All due respects,

I'm sure it will return to the original conversation, this was just a sidebar. And I for one would love to see your pictures.

I feel dumber for having read this thread just now. I've learned less than nothing. I've never bothered to try such paper cutting with straights. Since I have several razors to test things with, I could do that but I still have no idea how this highly defended method is done.

I have another d@mn useless phone book on my porch waiting to go in the trash but supposedly this is not good for testing. A notepad was described as being better but it was not named.

Please, if you are going to promote a method, then make it available for testing. That is, tell me exactly how you do it. What specific paper? What angle of approach to the paper? What depth of cut? What else?

I haven't read beyond a couple of pages in this thread. I just don't have the patience. If it works for you cool. Why do people insist on having the last word in a debate ? There are people that insist that HHT is NOT a reliable method to judge shave readiness. IME it is, and that is what I use as a measure.

Cutting paper. While it is true that not all hair is the same, all of my hair is the same, and I am not testing anyone else's edges. We go on and on about whether coticules, eschers, phigs, &c, are superior to synthetics ...... or not.

If you have found the hones and the tests that work for you ....... solid. Stick with them, and if you are so inclined experiment with further methods/materials. Letting folks know what you're doing and what you've found is laudable. Making it a crusade to spread the gospel of your discoveries, becoming an evangelist of cutting paper is sort of tiresome IMHO. Save a tree, razors are intended to cut hair. OTOH, whatever works for you.