Thread: Paper testing razors

Originally Posted by eKretz

Hmm, people are sharing info with you. They will not always agree, nor all be in consensus over what works best. We are all human, with our own faults, opinions, imperfections and perceptions. No two of us are alike, so one can't expect us all to do everything alike. Take the info from all and digest it as you like. The info from a guy saying something won't work well has equal value to someone suggesting a method that has value to him if the recipient of the information is open-minded.

Well said.

Honed a razor today. I gave bigeasy's paper cutting a try. I had to reset the bevel anyway so there was no reason not to try it. I used the more traditional (from the knife world) phone book paper. The results correlated well for me with other tests at the 1k level. I did no paper cutting after bevel set.

Originally Posted by bluesman7

Honed a razor today. I gave bigeasy's paper cutting a try. I had to reset the bevel anyway so there was no reason not to try it. I used the more traditional (from the knife world) phone book paper. The results correlated well for me with other tests at the 1k level. I did no paper cutting after bevel set.

Hypothetically, what properties could change with cutting paper from 1K to 12K. Would the paper cut more cleanly, would the sound of the paper being sliced change, would there be more pull off the 1K than off the 12K?

Originally Posted by Slurryer

Hypothetically, what properties could change with cutting paper from 1K to 12K. Would the paper cut more cleanly, would the sound of the paper being sliced change, would there be more pull off the 1K than off the 12K?

I was treating the paper cutting as a bevel set test and like another bevel set test that I do, the TNT, I assumed that it was a slightly destructive test. As such I did not use it above the 1k level.

Before dulling the razor for re honing I did slice a little paper with the razor in just off of shave ready condition.
That was pretty impressive.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'm not sure if you get my point. I'm saying a toothy looking edge can shave identically to a smooth looking edge. No difference whatsoever. No scratchiness. No need for any compensation in lather or prep.
Below are 2 Pumas that shave identically one looks smoother than the other but no difference whatsoever in the shave test.

You are right, I did not completely understand. I am uncertain from your pics. This is pretty high magnification and different lighting. I would be very interested in testing each. I do see some very small teeth in the darker photo, but am unsure it would be enough to think it would cause a big problem. You say they shave identically. I have to assume this is for you. Have you had anyone with about a month of experience test each?

Originally Posted by bigeasy1

You are right, I did not completely understand. I am uncertain from your pics. This is pretty high magnification and different lighting. 200x approx & the darker one was to silhouette the teeth as best as possible. I would be very interested in testing each. Sorry, gone to owners years ago. I do see some very small teeth in the darker photo, but am unsure it would be enough to think it would cause a big problem. That was my point re teeth. The other is obviously quite smooth by comparison so there should be some difference right ?. You say they shave identically. Correct I have to assume this is for you. I tested them , yes. Have you had anyone with about a month of experience test each? I don't understand what that would prove. Both razors went to ecstatic owners who were not seasoned vets. I would've heard back if there were complaints.

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Originally Posted by Slurryer

Hypothetically, what properties could change with cutting paper from 1K to 12K. Would the paper cut more cleanly, would the sound of the paper being sliced change, would there be more pull off the 1K than off the 12K?

Oh, I guess I am not feeling too much heat yet. Everyone can believe what they want. I would not throw sand at anyones comments without thoroughly testing their methods myself, but I do not have an agenda. I hone about 300-350 different razors a year. I test shave each and every one. If I were to believe what some others here so strongly profess, I would need to issue a recall on about the last 1500 of them that I obviously destroyed.
Cutting paper is not harder to learn than the HHT. Like the HHT results improve with experience, and interpretation. I buy cheap 5x8 notepads, available in a 10 pk, that will last most well over a year. Much more consistent than random hairs. Much more consistent from user to user, than random hairs. I do store it away rom drafts, moisture, and sunlight. Phone books and newspaper are about the cheapest paper you can find, other than toilet paper, and not very consistent. They may very some from maker to maker, so I buy the 10 pk. This is not theoretical. Believe what you like. With experience, one sheet of paper may be enough for 2-3 razors. I will go thru a ten pack every year or so. I may stat a particular razor on 600 grit diamond if the condition warrants. I start cutting paper from there. Once I am satisfied the imperfections are gone, I may do a test cut. I will continue on the 600 diamond with a lighter hand, to minimize the deeper striations before moving to 1K. I may do several closer examinations of the edge under strong light and magnification thru the 600 and 1K. Double bevels and not enough work at the ends are the most common things to pick up during the exams. I will cut paper to determine that the edge has improved with lighter honing before moving to the 1K. You are using the coarser stone because it removes more, faster. It will still do this with lighter hand, so why move to the 1K too soon and work it harder. With a little experience you will be able to detect a smoother edge with a little less noise. By the end of 1K you will easily detect a smoother edge with less noise. By 10K it will be very smooth cut with little noise. By strop time it will be a sharper edge left of the paper from the cut than the factory edge, and if your hearing is poor you may not hear it at all. If you want to try, get a pad of cheap note paper. Cut up a few pages with a razor you need to reset the bevel on anyway. Now hone 2-3 passes on 600 or 1k, and make a cut. If the sound and feel did not change, your edge is not reaching the stone yet. Try some more. You should be able to easily detect when the stone is reaching the edge. In this stage visual inspections are very important to ensure that you do not have an unwanted double bevel. If you have something that shaves but has a frown, you will be able to feel, see, and here a difference when the cut passes over the part that is not hitting the stone. As you become better with the cuts, and acuteness of feel, sight, and hearing, you will easily find very small frowns that you did not see. How many of you get near the end, or all of the way to the shave, and find that you missed something? How many do 100 of this and 100 of that because it is the only way you are sure you did enough? Not a problem with paper. If anyone out there has a fool prof method of ensuring the consistence of an entire edge in a few seconds, and ensure the near readiness of the edge, I certainly want to hear about it! If more detail is wanted we probably should take this to private message unless others want to hear more and ask questions. There can certainly be potholes along the way with gaining experience with this method, as is common with all methods. Anyone can learn to hone, eventually, with no test other than the shave test. They usually will not realize that their brain is picking up the little differences in sound, and feel, and helping them out. There has been a lot of mention about what works on knives will not work on razors. I can promise you that either those posters have never spent nearly as much time trying to learn cutting paper as they spent learning the HHT, or they don't really want you to know. As mentioned, I hone some 300-350 different razors a year. I don't spend 2 hours on each one. I also spend 10 hours a day at a job.
Cheers,

"I do see some very small teeth in the darker photo, but am unsure it would be enough to think it would cause a big problem. That was my point re teeth. The other is obviously quite smooth by comparison so there should be some difference right ?. You say they shave identically. Correct I have to assume this is for you. I tested them , yes. Have you had anyone with about a month of experience test each? I don't understand what that would prove. Both razors went to ecstatic owners who were not seasoned vets. I would've heard back if there were complaints."

As I mentioned early, I did not see a difference that I thought would be particularly noticeable on the shave, although I did notice a difference. The spots I see along the edge to not seem to be jagged, and may very well pass fine. Obviously did. As you yourself mentioned in an earlier post, the only true test is on the face. I have a microscope, but do not use it to determine if a razor will shave well. Mainly use it to find problems or phenomena that I am not finding by other methods. I main point with the question about a new shaver using it, was that I find newer shavers may be more sensitive to a rough edge. That was all. Thanks for the pics and further explanation. I didn't have a problem with your original comments, just the questions.
Cheers
ps, new to this type of posting so it may turn up a mess.

Nevere seen or heard this stone...wow

Originally Posted by kratos86

Nevere seen or heard this stone...wow

Can you guess why?