Thread: UK out of EU

Originally Posted by UKRob

This is all moving away from the point - the UK voted to leave the UK for a host of reasons. Robin has chosen to concentrate on immigration which was actually about the third most important one. The main reason is one of a sovereign state - when Btitain joined the EU it was on the basis of an economic union between the major western Europen countries.

There was never any intention to provide a security ot military force - and even now - security in Europe is the preserve of NATO which the UK contreributes to in a far greater extent than other European countries.

The single most important reason why the UK chose to abandon the EU is the question of sovereignty - France and Germany have a stated aim of creating a supra-national state that was never agreed to when the UK joined. We have experienced a situation where European Courts have superseded and overruled local legislation and reached what appear to be ridiculous conclusions.

The U.K. Is not a right wing society - we are one of the most tolerant and accepting societies in the modern world - despite what Robin would have you believe. The vote to leave the European Union was not taken lightly, it was a gut feeling that the EU cannot survive in its current form.

Agreed - those choosing to reduce the issue to immigration alone take comfort in thinking that those who, for a myriad of reasons, felt the UE was failing them, on multiple fronts, are imbeciles, and not listening to their betters - but it's always easier to reduce your opponents to those who can't chew gum and walk at the same time, intellectually inferior, and just not capable of fathoming the facts.

All this, despite this intellectually challenged group handing the Remain side a resounding defeat - amazing they even knew how to mark their ballots correctly.

The EU wasn't just failing them from what I read. When the EU takes control over another countries laws and their judgments supersede those of the native country it's time to get out. A small town butcher in England can't package a little kidney with the liver he wraps like he has learned from his father and grandfather, then it's time to boot the EU. That is a little intrusive if you ask me. In the interest of better trade my butt-ox. It's a power grab period. Same old fights that have been going on for centuries. Germany wants it this way, France wants it that way, England would rather not play that game and just do their own thing. The EU freed up borrowing for the smaller countries and look how that turned out.
The phenomenon I see is there was a vote and the ones that lost don't accept that they lost. Yelling screaming, protesting. Yeah, civilized humans living the democratic dream Pfffff. Wing nuts I call them, easily spun off :<0)

Another thing I noticed is the very same people who have the most to lose, IE their 401k, still voted leave. I don't think they believe the liars/confused any longer and are willing to risk a lot to get their country back. Good for them !

It's one thing to want to do something, another to be able to do it, and completely different to actually do it.

The UK didn't join EU through a referendum (there was one whether to stay in EC which was 60% for), and they can't leave it through one. The only way to leave is if their elected officials take the appropriate steps, and suddenly they are not in a hurry to do so. In fact they are now apparently looking for ways around the process because of realization that following it leaves UK in a comparatively weak negotiating position.

All this unpreparedness does not instill confidence and that is not a good thing.

As far as protests, that's just normal part of democracy and certainly beats resorting to violence which I keep reading warnings and treats that it's coming. I am pretty sure that there is no universal age of wisdom, as plenty of grown and old people have not gotten much of it, but anybody who pays a little bit of attention ought to know that those at the top are generally doing alright no matter what happens, so 'just burning it all' is pretty much cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Originally Posted by RobinK

Well, the Leave posse had one distinct advantage. They were able to appeal to both liberal minded people (through Boris Johnson for example), as well as fascist leaning proles (Nigel Farage and his band of xenophobic clowns).

This bodes ill for several other countries, such as France, the Netherlands, or the US, each of which is struggling with the rise of right wing radical parties.

Maybe more people should have read Lord of the Flies. One can learn a lot from this book, especially what happens if you are stuck on an island with a group of pig fixated public school boys.

Extremely telling: UK voters don’t understand Brexit, Google searches suggest | Ars Technica UK - that is what you get when you let ordinary people decide about highly complex problems. Hey, they might even be building a wall next, to keep Scottish rapists and criminals out...

Yea, letting ordinary people govern themselves is very risky. Better to let smart people dictate how things should be done, worked so well in the USSR

Originally Posted by miller1952

Yea, letting ordinary people govern themselves is very risky. Better to let smart people dictate how things should be done, worked so well in the USSR

An interesting reply. Two questions:

1. Can you explain, in legal terms, how the British "people" can reconcile the Leave.EU campaign's main goals (stop immigration, and maintain access to the single EU market), please?

2. Imagine you are Castle Forbes. Can you name all relevant rules and regulations required to be able to sell your products in each EU country after a successful Brexit?

Bonus question: Can you also explain how the USSR was a democracy?

Thank you.

[Edit] To elaborate on the above questions: The British referendum offered only "yes" and "no" as possible answers to an extremely complex question. Since Switzerland is often cited as a role model for semi-direct democratic decisions, it should be noted that the British referendum would not have been possible under Swiss law.

Most notably, the Leave.EU campaign failed to provide detail about the exact way of leaving the EU while fulfilling its promises, as well as the cost involved. In Switzerland, that would have been mandatory. One salient example is "getting your products into the common market". Ask any non-EU "artisan" soap"maker", and you will quickly realise why these products do not exist in the EU.

Originally Posted by 10Pups

The EU wasn't just failing them from what I read. When the EU takes control over another countries laws and their judgments supersede those of the native country it's time to get out. A small town butcher in England can't package a little kidney with the liver he wraps like he has learned from his father and grandfather, then it's time to boot the EU.

Your comment is a perfect example of talks that have been going on at this side of the pond. There is no such a rule from union. But nothing ain't easier than to say there is. Never mind how things are; true or not. All that matters how you make people feel.
Of course i do not know how the case you mentioned are in UK, i do not really care. If there is it comes from the local authorities. Blame the union.

The question is that is the butcher in question free to decide how to pack his products in the future. In a case of some local rule i guess the situation remains the same. But who to blame from now on? The vote has been given, never mind the butcher.

These days, maybe more than ever, people should deserve to make their decisions on pure facts. Be it for or against.

Your example is just one, but there are thousands and thousands just the same. Never mind how things are; all that matters is how you make people feel. Makes me very sad. Once people realize they have been told things that aren't true at all, they tend to trust politicians little less in the future and more into mob rule.

Originally Posted by Sailor

There is no such a rule from union.

To put things into perspective, and to demonstrate how incredibly complex the EU is, take a look at EU obligations: UK implementing legislation since 1993 in the House of Commons Library. The punch line: "there is no totally accurate, rational or useful way of calculating the percentage of national laws based on or influenced by the EU." Yes, it is that complex.

Furthermore, there is this:

In agriculture, fisheries, external trade, and the environment, it’s fair to say that EU legislation and policy is indeed the main driver of UK law and policy, although the UK retains some freedom of action in these areas.

In other important areas—for example, welfare and social security, education, criminal law, family law and the NHS—the direct influence of the EU is far more limited. [Source, and also this]

Further up in this thread, someone claimed that the EU was founded only as an economic union. This claim is blatantly false. Its first instalment, the European Coal and Steel Community "[...]was first proposed by French foreign minister Robert Schuman on 9 May 1950 as a way to prevent further war between France and Germany." And while the common market has indeed helped significantly foster growth in relatively underdeveloped countries, or regions, such as Portugal, Spain, or Wales, the greatest success is that there have been no wars inside the EU for decades (if you do not count football matches, that is).

As an aside, and because EU critics love to bring up that point at every occasion, it is not Germany that is driving further political integration, but rather countries like Italy, and France.

The UK as voted except our vote we want out of Europe, the previous UK government was a coalition which almost most of the UK didn't want we could'nt call for another general elction end of, I really couldn't care what London wants it's so far removed from the rest of the UK it could be a country in it's own right.

The Welsh vote has struck me as particularly strange.

Anyone remember 1984? Wales is one of the regions in the UK hit hardest by right wing (read: first Thatcher, and, theoretically now, Johnson, Gove, Farage) politics:

Likewise, Wales is probably the region in the UK to have benefited most from EU structural funds: Welsh Government | EU Funds in Wales ...

Less diplomatically put, the Leave.EU vote has all but guaranteed Wales to get more right wing London rule, and less money. Which is why I am still at a loss to understand that particular vote.

Originally Posted by RobinK

The Welsh vote has struck me as particularly strange.

Anyone remember 1984? Wales is one of the regions in the UK hit hardest by right wing (read: first Thatcher, and, theoretically now, Johnson, Gove, Farage) politics:

Likewise, Wales is probably the region in the UK to have benefited most from EU structural funds: Welsh Government | EU Funds in Wales ...

Less diplomatically put, the Leave.EU vote has all but guaranteed Wales to get more right wing London rule, and less money. Which is why I am still at a loss to understand that particular vote.

Robin you are very right to think it strange that Wales voted out after all Wales is the traditional Labour socialist heartland with the UK and you could say with the most to lose should we come out of Europe, this why it's a fare vote Welsh people generally are on the left of UK politics with no right wing parties able to influence or scare them into the Brexit vote and they voted out, I myself voted out as I see no long term future within europe I've never been a supporter of bigger is better in fact I'm a big fan of the late James Goldsmith and his ideas.

Zac Goldsmith: How my dad saved Britain