Thread: UK out of EU

Yes, the extreme right or left have always been a relatively small group in normal times and have always used fear and scape goating to increase their apparent power in times of unrest. They offer no real alternative/answers but when enough people are left behind when a radical change happens that they can't cope with the extremes start looking attractive.

The decision to globalize the economy was made at least 40 years ago and has slowly come to this point. Along the way not much was done to alleviate the predictable economic turmoil it would create in large portions of the population in the western industrialized world. Add to that creating the circumstances that have lead to the largest migration of people ever seen to what is now the EU and you have the last straw that broke the camels back.

The blame is squarely on the shoulders of those who have guided us into this new world order, not the extreme right or left and certainly not on those who have been left behind. If you claim the right to manage things, by being elected or by position of power financially, the corollary to that is you have the right to mismanage.

Bob

Originally Posted by BobH

Yes, the extreme right or left have always been a relatively small group in normal times and have always used fear and scape goating to increase their apparent power in times of unrest. They offer no real alternative/answers but when enough people are left behind when a radical change happens that they can't cope with the extremes start looking attractive.

The decision to globalize the economy was made at least 40 years ago and has slowly come to this point. Along the way not much was done to alleviate the predictable economic turmoil it would create in large portions of the population in the western industrialized world. Add to that creating the circumstances that have lead to the largest migration of people ever seen to what is now the EU and you have the last straw that broke the camels back.

The blame is squarely on the shoulders of those who have guided us into this new world order, not the extreme right or left and certainly not on those who have been left behind. If you claim the right to manage things, by being elected or by position of power financially, the corollary to that is you have the right to mismanage.

Bob

Well said.

Slightly off topic, we're also yet to experience the growing pains that will come from the technological revolution in how it will impact the workforce globally. The Industrial Revolution radically altered the workforce by mechanizing labor that was previously manual. Robotics and technology is a second wave of this. We can anticipate that a very large percentage of "minimum wage" unskilled jobs will cease to exist within the next fifty years or so. Not sure how that will impact society when so much of the populace won't have work to do...... Job of the future for the youth of today? Get into robotics!

ChrisL

I have to slightly disagree:

It is no longer just the Extreme right that is upset, they have always been upset, same with the Extreme Left...

You have the Majority in the center that is upset, and that does not bode well..

To claim that it is the two polar opposites on the Left and Right pulling in either direction, I find to be rather naive and possibly a root cause of the real issue

There is quite a bit of simple outrage at the Establishment Politicians for not doing what the people elected them to do rather then a fundamental shift in thinking ..

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I have to slightly disagree:

It is no longer just the Extreme right that is upset, they have always been upset, same with the Extreme Left...

You have the Majority in the center that is upset, and that does not bode well..

To claim that it is the two polar opposites on the Left and Right pulling in either direction, I find to be rather naive and possibly a root cause of the real issue

There is quite a bit of simple outrage at the Establishment Politicians for not doing what the people elected them to do rather then a fundamental shift in thinking ..

Might be different in different countries. I do not know. Here both left and right extremists are pulling exactly the same direction. Against majority center. They have more in common than things that would are different.
Although have to say that real dead black extreme leftists died about 30 years ago. Now there's not much left.

Luckily most people nowadays realize that it doesn't matter if you are right, left, christian, muslim or whatever. That is not important. It's your choice. But when someone goes extreme then there's a change he/she also becomes problem.

Originally Posted by Sailor

Might be different in different countries.

Yeah That ^^^^^^

That is exactly why I haven't given an opinion on Brexit... I don't live there



Same as I really don't care what somebody in Germany thinks about our Federal Lands Issues with Eco-Terrorists since it isn't their house at risk from fires in the stupidly overgrown forests and mis-managed BLM Grasslands of the PNW...

Originally Posted by RobinK

(Glen, not everyone concerned about the environment is a terrorist, even if they are over-zealous - and they often are,)

Originally Posted by BobH

The decision to globalize the economy was made at least 40 years ago and has slowly come to this point. Along the way not much was done to alleviate the predictable economic turmoil it would create in large portions of the population in the western industrialized world. Add to that creating the circumstances that have lead to the largest migration of people ever seen to what is now the EU and you have the last straw that broke the camels back.
Bob

The decision was made really back then and it surely hasn't treated everyone well. Some countries have had better changes to deal with it bit longer but no single nation can handle it ok forever. Just have to live with it, as sad as it sounds.
Large unions have better changes and forces to solve the problems; be it USA, European union, China or India. Single nations get a risk to get blown away like cork in the waves. Of course they have right to try it. And everyone needs to respect their wish.

I believe building walls around your country wont much help either. They tried behind iron curtain. People escaped as soon as they could, some before, even when knowing they would be shot. It was an interesting experiment, made on humans. And while it lasted, the rest of the world had taken gigantic steps forward. I remember the times when people risked their lives, coming with rubber boats and whatever from Russia, Ingria, Estonia. I have so many friends today that once lived behind the curtain.
Walls around your country would work only if you could guarantee the same benefits and pros to your citizen as are getting those who are living outside. If you can't that is a expensive mistake. And all this time, rest of the world goes on. No one is able to pick the cherries from the cake forever either.

As ChrisL said, technical revolution will be next challenge. But that is the way it has always been. We have no more telephone central operators and such. But we have new business that might have been impossible to imagine at the times of those same operators.
Now, if any country would want to get back to phone central operators again, it surely had the right to do so. But the world economy and the reality would be hard and cruel.

Every now and then i read good news on new business. Nowadays there's more work horses than ever since war. And they are really working on lumber and forest industry. They go where engines wont go and work where huge engines break. That is no wheel turning back but using old skills for new business.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

There is quite a bit of simple outrage at the Establishment Politicians for not doing what the people elected them to do rather then a fundamental shift in thinking ..

The problem is that 'what people elected them to do' is rather meaningless.

Direct democracy a.k.a. doing things the way people want is significantly worse than representative democracy. The lack of many successful companies that are run by employee referendums is because the market forces are merciless.

In a representative democracy the role of the people is to elect capable leaders who are willing and able to improve their lives. Which is dependent on the ability of political forces to control purely economic forces, and not the other way around.

In US the approval of Congress as a whole is at present around 15%, but the people keep reelecting the incumbents 9 out of 10 times. What is broken is our decision making process and if not only can't we elect politicians based on qualifications, but also insist on reelecting them, I am not quite sure that we are going to do a better job than them at setting policies.

The people of UK have voted to leave EU and the market response was immediate and punitive. Some of the leaders who wanted it have suddenly gotten cold feet once they received what they wished for. Those who are still on board should make good on their promises and actually complete it, then down the road we'll find out if it ends up working better or worse. The only problem is that once they were confronted with the reality of post-referendum the people of UK may be having a buyer's remorse i.e. the UK doesn't seem to have its act together to go through with it yet.

Originally Posted by Sailor

The decision was made really back then and it surely hasn't treated everyone well. Some countries have had better changes to deal with it bit longer but no single nation can handle it ok forever. Just have to live with it, as sad as it sounds.
Large unions have better changes and forces to solve the problems; be it USA, European union, China or India. Single nations get a risk to get blown away like cork in the waves. Of course they have right to try it. And everyone needs to respect their wish.

I believe building walls around your country wont much help either. They tried behind iron curtain. People escaped as soon as they could, some before, even when knowing they would be shot. It was an interesting experiment, made on humans. And while it lasted, the rest of the world had taken gigantic steps forward. I remember the times when people risked their lives, coming with rubber boats and whatever from Russia, Ingria, Estonia. I have so many friends today that once lived behind the curtain.
Walls around your country would work only if you could guarantee the same benefits and pros to your citizen as are getting those who are living outside. If you can't that is a expensive mistake. And all this time, rest of the world goes on. No one is able to pick the cherries from the cake forever either.

As ChrisL said, technical revolution will be next challenge. But that is the way it has always been. We have no more telephone central operators and such. But we have new business that might have been impossible to imagine at the times of those same operators.
Now, if any country would want to get back to phone central operators again, it surely had the right to do so. But the world economy and the reality would be hard and cruel.

Every now and then i read good news on new business. Nowadays there's more work horses than ever since war. And they are really working on lumber and forest industry. They go where engines wont go and work where huge engines break. That is no wheel turning back but using old skills for new business.

No, you can't turn the clock back or build walls. What you have to do is make sure the majority are somehow satisfied with their lot and none of the larger unions have done that very well.

I remember when Free Trade then later NAFTA came into effect. Well paying jobs slipped south and the off shore. Not to worry says the government there will be even more service sector jobs created to replace them. That hasn't worked out that well so far even if you were lucky enough to get a service sector job after being displaced from the manufacturing sector. You can't blame people who have had their standard of living signed away. As far as new opportunities for employment in the new tech industries goes, they generally employ far fewer people by their nature anyway.

It is a can of worms and not all of us survived unscathed. I can't see it getting any better anytime soon.

Bob

After all Britain leaving EU was what the majority of voters there wished and that is now what both union and the world respects. Wheter it's good or bad for world or Britons is irrelevant. People didn't vote for good or bad.

Now what should happen and quick is to make things go forward as it's people, companies, related orsganisations and even globalization that need for solution. People got their change to vote, where are the leaders to do their job.

Currently there are a lot of people living, working and studying in UK, some of them married with child to briton, one of them being a kid of my work mate. Now uncertain, does he have to leave or not, leaving his family behind forever.

At the same time there are many britons, studying in EU based program, Erasmus, in various union countries. Do they have to quit or not.
One of my kids in times was studying via Erasmus in France.

In my home town there's English/Irish community working/studying in town. In the university, naval and it industry, some of them being close friends to my son who works at the shipyards.
Now English folks are worried if they have to leave while Irish have no such worries.

No matter how it will go but people really deserve to get answers soon.

Now they feel they are just pawn worth throwing away.
And what happens next: comes a nice looking face looking trustworthy telling that it was muslims, catholic, or bilingual me that's really to blame.

And while politicians try to get into reason for this shit, they finally decide to do something against muslims, catholic or bilingual me.

Business as usual.

Originally Posted by gugi

The problem is that 'what people elected them to do' is rather meaningless.

I disagree and we just proved it today in Idaho




Elected officials will comply to the will of the people, it might take time and multiple elections but it does work