Thread: Stop the Bailout

The Congressional "leaders", in applying coercive tactics to members of congress to force them to reverse their votes, are SUBVERTING the Constitution, and they are doing it on national television in full view of America!
denmason


That's always amazed me! If I use MY money to buy votes, I can go to Prison. If THEY use MY money to buy votes, they can go back for another term.
If I try to force a Congressman to vote a certain way, I'm in BIG trouble. When Pelosi does it, that's something to be admired? Where exactly is the disconnect?

I heard the term "over simplistic" used lately in terms of blame or consequences for our economic "collapse". I am one of those who invested poorly, I guess, in turning over my assets to another. I'm hurting right now from some of the choices or chances I've taken. We all take chances, even if it's to decide to shave with a straight razor. OK, this economic mine shaft is more than that, but taking chances is a choice, neither good or bad in and of itself. It has consequences that may be better or not than doing nothing. I hear people saying, it's Republican, or Democrats. But it's not. I believe it's trusting people outside your self that puts you at some level of risk from the get go. Sometime we read people or situations well and sometimes we don't. But it was still our choice to trust others with our property. It was not something that was thrust upon us. We chose to do that. We are becoming a people who rely on others to make our decisions for us, to take care of us if you will. I give you my money (land, business, whatever) and you spend it as you think appropriate. Our choice. It wasn't necessarily the investing in something, but how much control you give over to others. If it fails, we say it was essentially their fault, not mine, right? Maybe not. If I give you a new balloon and say "here, you have at it." I give you my control. You keep blowing it up (giving it more) and it bursts! Well it was all your fault, I had nothing to do with it, you ruined my balloon. Likewise, I give, they don't necessarily take, and when it goes bad, it's their fault. NO! I gave up my responsibilities hoping you'd make something good for me and I was wrong. I believe it's not ones party or another, one's bank, one's lender or another that is at ultimate fault. It's us, each and every one of us who decides to turn over our life or any part of it to some else, including the government. "Government, now bail me out, make my mistake good and have a little more control while you're at it". I like what good old Abe Lincoln said: "A government that gives you everything, is a government that can take everything from you. ..." The government bailout or loan is not the problem nor the answer. It is a shift of responsibility once again to someone else. And this one's gonna hurt for a while. We are selling our children's heritage to someone else, whether it be the government investing poorly, selling KFC to the Japanese, selling our very own land we stand on to foreign entities or what. We are making choices, that have consequences, short and long term that take us out of our own picture or destiny. Fingers ,at this junction in history, pointing in any direction is not an answer, but a shift in responsibility. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, but we can learn.

In conclusion to the rambling on about something that many may say are words w/o merit I borrow again from A. Lincoln, on a positive note:

"It is said an Eastern monarch once charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: 'And this, too, shall pass away.' How much it expresses! How chastening in the hour of pride! How consoling in the depths of affliction!" The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln.

Let's hope Ol' Abe is right.
Lee

That's what I say every time I flush the toilet.

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!

That is a fact of life.

Originally Posted by Brother Jeeter

Don't know what to say about the pervasive, understandable subtext in many of these posts in favor of some sort of revenge for what's happened.

Nord Jim


Jim,

I'm not looking for revenge, only Justice. I have always been the sort of man who says, "Let the chips fall where they may." And if they land on some Fat-Cats, so be it.
I will repeat, I didn't do anything risky, or illegal. So why should I pay to clean up the mess for somebody who made several million bucks, while they possibly committed fraud?
BTW, the last time I checked, there were two crimes for which there was NO statute of limitations. Murder and Fraud. So you're right, we have a while.

You will pay one way or the other, through lower property values, higher insurance premiums, increased crime, loss of jobs, increased security risks because yet again the US managed to screw everyone in the world, there's lots of ways you'll pay. At least with the bail-out just, just as with the savings and loan bailout, there is a chance of getting some, all or even more than all of the investment back.

Talk about your basic "putting lipstick on a pig' move, the Bush administration along with the tweedle this and tweedle that presidential wannabes are mounting a massive push for another turn at the bailout bill. I don't know about you, but I'm calling my Congressional delegation to thank them for having the backbone to stand up to the bankster bailout. I suggest you do the same. Call your representative and ask them how they voted and give them thanks or ask why they are stone deaf to the People. While it's true that the stock market will likely decline without a bailout, the problem I've had with the bailout from the start is that the main argument in favor of it seems to be that without it, the market will decline. Honest disclosure is a threat? A company taking excessive risks and being reckless should be saved? What planet are we on here? When the hell did America start live in fear of an honest reckoning of financial excesses and greed and agree to being held hostage for a $700 billion ransom by Banksters? Is the market overpriced? You bet! Is food? You bet! Has globalism stolen real tangible jobs from America? Uh huh! Could it all come down around the elite and a lot of uber-rich feel pain? Oh well... welcome to Main Street. But more to the point: What part of "NO!" was it they didn't understand?

Originally Posted by denmason

But more to the point: What part of "NO!" was it they didn't understand?

Dennis, normally you're the proponent of the thesis that 'US is a republic not a democracy', by which you seem to mean that it is representative, not direct democracy. The idea, as you are well aware is that the popular opinion can and often should be overriden by the elite, when they think that it's wrong. The majority is not always right.

As far as how bad things will get when the market overcorrects itself, that's just anybody's speculation. It seems to me that the reason americans oppose the bailout is that so far they have not been affected too much (in part because of the interventions so far).
Somehow though I have the feeling that either way those who will get it worst won't be the ones with the biggest losses (they'll have plenty left after that too).

In interest of full disclosure I'm probably more detached than most because I don't have much at stake - I can just leave the country if I don't like it here.

at denmason

I wouldn't go around blaming globalism for this. If you can't keep jobs in the face of competition, then you don't deserve them either. Globalism doesn't 'steal' jobs.

That's true for me and true for you.
The new norton factory is in mexico, and according to Howard, the hones are of better quality than when they were made in the US. So Norton made a good choice to close down the US plant.

Nationalism and business do not mix.

Originally Posted by gugi

Dennis, normally you're the proponent of the thesis that 'US is a republic not a democracy', by which you seem to mean that it is representative, not direct democracy. The idea, as you are well aware is that the popular opinion can and often should be overriden by the elite, when they think that it's wrong. The majority is not always right.

The representative republic is to send representatives back to the seat of government to vote the will of the people so that the people don't have to individually go to the polls every single time something needs voting on, it's not so they can vote against the peoples' will. Our (Utah's) Congressman Cannon was a prime example of what our legislators do wrong with their sense of entitlement. The day before the vote he was asked how he would vote, given the number of calls to the office saying to vote no. He said that he won't know how he's going to vote until he was actually casting the vote, and then he'd vote how he personally felt. He voted yes. In an interview last night he tried to play it off as the "right thing to do" and said he'd known all along, so easily forgetting his words just days before. He's not up for re-election because he got spanked in the primary for this sort of behavior. He, in spite the peoples' voice to the contrary, was pushing amnesty. In the primaries, the only thing his opponent did was speak against it, and he won by a landslide. Most times, it works when people get involved.

The idea, as you are well aware is that the popular opinion can and often should be overriden by the elite, when they think that it's wrong. The majority is not always right.

gugi


Gugi,

There are two things that stand out to me. One is that there shouldn't be an "Elite" class in this country. I admit there are some people who may have Gulfstream jets and Rolls Royces, but they are no BETTER than any other man in this country! There was no thought that there would eventually be a "Ruling Class" in this country, when The Constitution was ratified! I refer to dinosaurs like Robert Byrd, Teddy Kennedy, John Kerry and Jay Rockefeller. They are Poster Children for term limits! The idea of an "ELITE" class is repugnant to those of us who are Rednecks!
Second, The majority may not always be right, but they are always the majority! And they have the power to vote a bad politician out of office. It ought to happen on a very regular basis!