Thread: Is this Americas future?

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

Gee, I love that term, "RINO." That's what they used to call me. Seems I wasn't orthodox enough. Then, when they started consigning me to eternal damnation, I left the party altogether. Rep. Peter King (R-NY) wasn't kidding when he said, "We're going to turn ourselves into a party of barefoot hillbillies who go to revival meetings."

You should learn a bit more about the union ballot. The Employee Free Choice Act does not abolish elections or "secret ballots." It gives workers in individual companies the choice, depending upon what gives them the greatest level of comfort with the process. The current secret ballot process has been rife with management abuse. Under that system, 25% of companies illegally fire union workers, over 50% threaten to close the plant (also illegal), and about a third bribe or coerce employees to vote no. The incident of these abuses under card ballots is significantly lower.

I think we all know that there have been abuses by unions in all sorts of ways, but they pale in comparison to the activities of management.

j

That choice is gone if the union organizers can coerce a majority of publicly signed cards in favor of union representation. Employees and employers have no choice but to go into negotiations and if not in agreement in 3 months, a federal arbitrator wil set an agreement up that is binding for 2 years.

Obviously you have never had a visit from a labor organizer at your house trying to sell you his great product but not telling you that they just want 2% of your wage to pay their fat cats and manipulate government with their monetary contribution.

As it stands after a card check is brought up to the levels required, the employer can request a secret vote and give the employee time to hear both sides of the argument.

I have seen SALTS infiltrate shops and management walks a fine line to not break the rules. The penalties for the employer are much higher than the union for not following the proper negotiating regulations and will increase even more in the passage of EFCA. The 25% of companies that fire union employees is a false statement, as the ones fired are usually organizers fired before the union comes in. Why are they fired, for not doing the job they were hired to do. Can't spend all day talking to other employees and not doing your job.

If you want to be in the Union, go sign up and wait the bench and get on board with a company. Why try and take a company that prefers to run as they see fit and change them. You don't like "x" company, then leave. You don't marry a choir girl and try to turn her into a call girl.

I'm sorry you don't like the term RINO. I have my principles that lean quite to the right. Others would rather stand in the middle and call both sides their own. Civil, well reasoned debate is what we are founded upon and when that changes, I know Caesar is standing at the gates.

You being from DC and I being from a little podunk town in Ohio, may never agree on what is right for this country. But we are both free to express our opinions.

The Iraqi government has opened Abu Graib prison back up calling it the Bagdad federal prison. (this is true)

This solves where to send the 2-300 Gitmo prisoners. The prison houses about 2500 prisoners.

The only approved method of interrogation is to use a Zeepk honed only to HHT on a 1K norton and the use of Pinaud Clubman after the shave. (this is not true)

Originally Posted by kilowattkid

a Zeepk honed only to HHT on a 1K norton

Is that even possible?

Originally Posted by sidneykidney

Is that even possible?

I don't know, it just sounded harsh. How about a double arrow on a 600 DMT.

Originally Posted by kilowattkid

That choice is gone if the union organizers can coerce a majority of publicly signed cards in favor of union representation. Employees and employers have no choice but to go into negotiations and if not in agreement in 3 months, a federal arbitrator wil set an agreement up that is binding for 2 years.

Obviously you have never had a visit from a labor organizer at your house trying to sell you his great product but not telling you that they just want 2% of your wage to pay their fat cats and manipulate government with their monetary contribution.

As it stands after a card check is brought up to the levels required, the employer can request a secret vote and give the employee time to hear both sides of the argument.

I have seen SALTS infiltrate shops and management walks a fine line to not break the rules. The penalties for the employer are much higher than the union for not following the proper negotiating regulations and will increase even more in the passage of EFCA. The 25% of companies that fire union employees is a false statement, as the ones fired are usually organizers fired before the union comes in. Why are they fired, for not doing the job they were hired to do. Can't spend all day talking to other employees and not doing your job.

If you want to be in the Union, go sign up and wait the bench and get on board with a company. Why try and take a company that prefers to run as they see fit and change them. You don't like "x" company, then leave. You don't marry a choir girl and try to turn her into a call girl.

I'm sorry you don't like the term RINO. I have my principles that lean quite to the right. Others would rather stand in the middle and call both sides their own. Civil, well reasoned debate is what we are founded upon and when that changes, I know Caesar is standing at the gates.

You being from DC and I being from a little podunk town in Ohio, may never agree on what is right for this country. But we are both free to express our opinions.

Yes, I actually have sat through a union presentation. I've also lost my job to corporate union busting -- and I wasn't even a union employee. The bastards closed the union facility, where I worked, to intimidate the other, larger plant that was having a vote. Never assume that just because somebody disagrees with you, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm told on reliable authority that the little podunk town in Ohio where you live is the "real America." Not sure what that makes the rest of us. All part of the Republican tendency to value some people more than others.

Also, I'm not "from" DC. Like most people here, I'm from a little podunk town somewhere, and only moved here for the job -- after management screwed me over in the aforementioned union shop.

Use of the term "RINO" is just one of the many ways the Republican Party -- the party of my birth, which my family helped to found -- has marginalized itself. If the party turns to the Palin faction as its future, it's going to be in the wilderness for a very long time. That's why we call Sarah Palin "The Republican Moses."

j

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Is it wrong to use torture????
Is it wrong to use torture to save a life????

I would be the first to say that torture just for the sake of inflicting pain is wrong, BUT torture to save a life ?????

You apparently are saying that torture would be justified in order to save a life, and I don't know that I disagree with you, but, if it is justified, were the North Vietnamese justified in torturing US POW's? They were trying to save their people's lives.

And THAT argument is just one step away from the following scenario:

A guantanamo (sp.) prisoner being tortured because we think they know where a bomber is who might have plans to kill US civillian lives.

The key words in that sentence are 'we think' and 'might'.

Just food for thought there. I personally see no justification for torture in that case.

On the other hand if I was forced to choose between somebody dying and being tortured a bit myself I guess I would opt for the torture.

Its all in the perspective. At the end of the day its on your conscience. Can YOU live with yourself?

Originally Posted by Nord Jim

Yes, I actually have sat through a union presentation. I've also lost my job to corporate union busting -- and I wasn't even a union employee. The bastards closed the union facility, where I worked, to intimidate the other, larger plant that was having a vote. Never assume that just because somebody disagrees with you, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm told on reliable authority that the little podunk town in Ohio where you live is the "real America." Not sure what that makes the rest of us. All part of the Republican tendency to value some people more than others.

Use of the term "RINO" is just one of the many ways the Republican Party -- the party of my birth, which my family helped to found -- has marginalized itself. If the party turns to the Palin faction as its future, it's going to be in the wilderness for a very long time. That's why we call Sarah Palin "The Republican Moses."

j

Jim,
With your experience then on this issue of unions how EFCA will prevent what happened to you. I don't see it. I am trying to understand how it is OK for the union to use strong arm tactics to infiltrate a business, but said business is not allowed to have any recourse to run their business as they see fit. Where are the free market principles in that? These businesses will take the arbitrators judgement, run the business into the ground and reopen under different terms and be a non union shop again until the process of unionizing starts over. There is a reason that they did not open the doors for theunion in the first place.
Unions were once very much needed during the early days of the industrial society. With all the government regulations and programs (osha, epa , nfpa, etc) the union aren't much more than another lobby group and hold around 12% of the jobs in the country. The minority telling the majority how to do business.
Your "reliable authority" is wrong. There is only one America by my standards. Just as there is only one type of American. There are no African - Americans, Arab - Americans, Latino - Americans, etc. I believe A Roosevelt settled this many years ago by saying there is no room for hyphenated Americans. We are just simply, Americans.
As for the value of people, I value individuals based on what I see, read and hear from said individual.
McCain was not the ideal candidate from the R party and they better work hard on getting a true R in the running next time. Palin was a ploy to try and get the Hillary vote. It is too bad you abandoned the party your family helped to found. I suppose some of us will try to turn the party back to its roots while others will move on, principles be damned.
You have your reasons for leaving and I have mine for staying.
This thread has certainly morphed into a 3 headed monster, but all the topics discussed deal with our future. I hope the initial poster does not feel like it was hijacked.

Originally Posted by kilowattkid

Jim,
With your experience then on this issue of unions how EFCA will prevent what happened to you. I don't see it. I am trying to understand how it is OK for the union to use strong arm tactics to infiltrate a business, but said business is not allowed to have any recourse to run their business as they see fit. Where are the free market principles in that? These businesses will take the arbitrators judgement, run the business into the ground and reopen under different terms and be a non union shop again until the process of unionizing starts over. There is a reason that they did not open the doors for theunion in the first place.
Unions were once very much needed during the early days of the industrial society. With all the government regulations and programs (osha, epa , nfpa, etc) the union aren't much more than another lobby group and hold around 12% of the jobs in the country. The minority telling the majority how to do business.
Your "reliable authority" is wrong. There is only one America by my standards. Just as there is only one type of American. There are no African - Americans, Arab - Americans, Latino - Americans, etc. I believe A Roosevelt settled this many years ago by saying there is no room for hyphenated Americans. We are just simply, Americans.
As for the value of people, I value individuals based on what I see, read and hear from said individual.
McCain was not the ideal candidate from the R party and they better work hard on getting a true R in the running next time. Palin was a ploy to try and get the Hillary vote. It is too bad you abandoned the party your family helped to found. I suppose some of us will try to turn the party back to its roots while others will move on, principles be damned.
You have your reasons for leaving and I have mine for staying.
This thread has certainly morphed into a 3 headed monster, but all the topics discussed deal with our future. I hope the initial poster does not feel like it was hijacked.

Although I do know that unions can use tactics that could be described as "strong-arm," in my experience, they pale in comparison with what the corporations will do on the opposite side. Besides that, it's not a fair fight. Management holds a person's job in the balance. What does the union have to compare with that? That's why fair labor practices have always regulated mostly on the side of labor. Management actually needs very little protection. They already hold most of the cards, and as I know from sad personal experience, they're not afraid to use them. And I was management!

In my opinion, the Republican Party abandoned its principles a couple decades ago. That's what it's all about. If they became what they once were, I'd be happy to go back. The Democrats are far from a comfortable fit for me. But I'm not holding my breath. Nothing I see indicates that the GOP is suddenly going back to defense of personal liberty, small government, and fiscal responsibility.

There was no "ideal candidate" for the GOP this time around. They drove the country into a very deep ditch, and were bound to get spanked. Personally, I think McCain was the only candidate they had who could possibly have made a race of it.

j

Originally Posted by droche

You apparently are saying that torture would be justified in order to save a life, and I don't know that I disagree with you, but, if it is justified, were the North Vietnamese justified in torturing US POW's? They were trying to save their people's lives.

Now that is a good train of thought, and I really had to think about the answer....

My first response is that torture of uniformed soldiers is against all civilized codes of conduct in war... and I think at face value that looks good, but on deeper thought...

What if a uniformed soldier had the disarm codes of a nuclear weapon that if it went off would kill innocent people and/or uniformed combatants.... That to me would be clear and imminent danger and as the saying goes, war is hell...

Perhaps that is where the real problem lies, we have tried too hard to be politically correct in warfare and made war too clean and neat....
If in opening armed conflict with another, it would mean complete and utter devastation with no regard, other the the total annihilation of the enemy, perhaps war would finally be a thing of the past....


And at this point I would have to say sorry to Mark/JMS for some serious off topic discussions in his thread but it has been interresting... and the most gentlemanly one I have seen of this type....